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Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by ta1234567890 on Monday June 21, 2021 @01:34AM (#27576603)
> But if it is enough to survive on, then too many people who are capable of working will choose to instead just survive on it indefinitely.

So what? I would argue that most people want to feel purpose in life. If they don’t work, they want to do something else to feel fulfilled, something to be looked up to for, something to feel good about doing. It could be art, a sport, maybe just gardening, picking up trash in their neighborhood or organizing local events/classes. Most retired people don’t just sit in front of the tv waiting to die, or become criminals because they don’t have a job.

I think it would be amazing if most people didn’t have to work for a living. And only the people that want to work did so.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by cmckn on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:46AM (#27577397)
I appreciate the moonshot thinking, but I don’t think this is a realistic framework for human civilization. We already live in a society in which not everyone contributes (rich and poor), and it’s problematic. Inequality and resentment are inevitable when some contribute (or feel like they contribute) more than others. I think humans are generally not evil, but we are also quite fickle. I think you’re describing the dystopia of The Hunger Games from the perspective of a Capitol resident. :)
Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by mandmandam on Monday June 21, 2021 @07:56AM (#27578312)
> We already live in a society in which not everyone contributes (rich and poor), and it’s problematic.

There is more than enough wealth to feed and house everyone, so the issue is not of contribution, but distribution.

And boy oh boy, are things badly distributed. Look at the graphs of worker productivity compared to average wage for the last hundred years - they are staggering.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by callmeal on Monday June 21, 2021 @07:45AM (#27578260)
>I appreciate the moonshot thinking, but I don’t think this is a realistic framework for human civilization. We already live in a society in which not everyone contributes (rich and poor), and it’s problematic.

That's right - "the idle rich" is not just a saying.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by lmm on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:20AM (#27577038)
> Most retired people don’t just sit in front of the tv waiting to die

Citation? I'd like you to be right, but my subjective experience is that a lot of them pretty much do.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by Broken_Hippo on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:48AM (#27577404)
I had a great-grandmother that kept very, very busy after retiring until dementia took over: The other great grandmother complained at 95+ that her knees wouldn't work well enough to keep busy. And this is how folks that feel fairly healthy tend to be, as long as they have enough money. Don't get me wrong: Pretty much everyone slows down when they age, and a lot of mundane tasks can easily get more difficult or take more time - but folks are still busy with a full life.

And then you start hitting a sliding scale, and poor health, poverty, lack of transportation and/or wheelchair access, and a slew of other things makes it really easy to wind up being the person that sits at home. The other unfortunate reality is that some of the folks are sitting because they are dying. I've not yet died, but I suspect it tires you.

I also don't think this is a trend that will stay: I'm 42, and I have a completely different relationship to television than my mother. Unlike her, I rarely sit down and simply watch a show - and I know lots of folks like this. Games and hobbies and communication with others and all this other stuff is going on. And assuming we can still use our fingers and wrists well enough, I think this will stay.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by RhodoGSA on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:28AM (#27576821)
What you're describing isn't real life.

Living as a species takes work - granting a portion of the population to essentially become dead weight, with entitlement to being able to live off the fruits of other peoples labor won't end well.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by EliRivers on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:29AM (#27577327)
This is what we have now, is it not? The ultra-rich aren't numerous and many of them hide well, but this is what they're doing and the amount of wealth they seem to hoard (and be continually acquiring) is a lot more than the wealth needed to provide for the bottom. The less rich (but still very rich) who do still choose to work are similarly siphoning off large amounts from the backs of others. They are very skilled at getting the majority of the population to look the other way and blame poor people (and the other usual suspects), but as you suggest, they can't hide forever.

If that won't end well, I genuinely look forwards to seeing how we deal with them.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by RhodoGSA on Monday June 21, 2021 @12:41PM (#27580890)
the ultra-rich built amazon, made very profitable trades, or inherited the labor of the ancestors. Also, you seems to be applying that there is a fixed pie wealth. The rich can create wealth where there wasn't before. Rob the rich and give to the poor is also a terrible strategy.
Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by EliRivers on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:12PM (#27582932)
inherited the labor of the ancestors

Bingo. They didn't do shit to deserve it, they didn't work hard, and there's an entire industry of smart, morally ambiguous people dedicated to helping them hide it and keep it, and (as Abigail Disney discusses) convincing them that they deserve it, that poor people would simply waste it.

granting a portion of the population to essentially become dead weight, with entitlement to being able to live off the fruits of other peoples labor won't end well Well, there they are, doing just that.

Once you get to a certain amount of wealth, you don't need to do anything. Smart trades? None of that's needed. I'm a tiny little part of it; I work full-time, but once my personal wealth reached about six times my salary, it made more money each year than I did. Six times [0]. That is pennies in the big scheme of things. There's nothing smart about my trades; dull funds and diversity. Piketty was on to something; Bill Gates made more money from being rich than he ever did from Microsoft. Maybe he deserved all his riches from Microsoft, but does he now also deserve to sit back, do nothing, and perpetually watch his wealth grow more and more obscenely by taking a part of the wealth generated by people actually working? How about his Grandchildren? Do they deserve that? Young was right; meritocracy is what we've got, and this is what it does - the rich shall inherit the earth.

Also, you seems to be applying that there is a fixed pie wealth.

I disagree. I made no such "application", as you put it. Implying, I guess you mean, but I still disagree. There is not a fixed pie wealth. Every day, a lot of people are creating more and more wealth, and the very wealthy every day sit back and rake in a nice helping of it for themselves. As I also do, and I'm not remotely near very wealthy.

Rob the rich and give to the poor is also a terrible strategy.

How about "make them at least pay taxes like the poor schlubs generating the wealth they're perpetually helping themselves to?" Is that a better strategy? How about "alter the system a bit so that labour pays better than simply being rich, or at least benefits the labourer ahead of the rich?" That one probably sounds like batshit crazy communist land.

[0] It's ridiculous, but it's true. I don't do calls, I don't do puts, most of it is in dull index funds and a big chunk of the rest is in slightly less dull fund offerings from Baillie Gifford and the like. Once you get some capital, it will happily act like a leech on society, siphoning off wealth generated by other people's work into your own pocket. I ride on the very, very long tail of this system set up to benefit the rich; I only hope that I die before their endless squeeze catches up with me as well.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by RhodoGSA on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @12:59PM (#27606811)
you're right, wealth creates wealth. You lending money in the form of investment allows companies to borrow at better rates, expanding production and prosperity. & you're right, at a certain point when you have enough capital it doesn't make sense to be a laborer anymore as you can move markets enough with your cash to be an 'Investor' instead of a laborer.

Granted, obviously the current system is not perfect and does need a mechanism to make the rich pay their fair share in the economy. But saying all the rich just inherited their wealth and they did nothing to deserve it is plain incorrect.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by nicbou on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:59AM (#27576945)
Our species wears pants, flies airplanes and invented cocaine. The argument about what's natural and what isn't is rather ridiculous to make.
Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by RhodoGSA on Monday June 21, 2021 @12:40PM (#27580876)
i didn't say natural, i said real life. Those things are all products of labor, without that labor they wouldn't exist.
Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by nverno on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:24AM (#27576803)
> So what?

This is how the poor stay poor, and those who are "just broke" become poor. In fact, people who are working are much more likely to engage in other community activities and volunteer.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by imtringued on Monday June 21, 2021 @10:32AM (#27579567)
People stay poor because there is no opportunity for them to stop being poor by working. If they were poor voluntarily then we wouldn't have to give a damn about them as we already did everything possible.

If you gave a poor person the opportunity to become rich through work, would they still decide to stay poor?

When you are being rewarded for hard work it is hard to grasp the concept that some not all people are being rewarded for hard work. Pretty much every entrepreneur falls into that trap. Everything they do can have a direct impact to their bottom line so they work hard and long hours. Meanwhile they wonder why their employees with low wages that are often below planned minimum wage increases do the bare minimum to not get fired. It is pretty obvious. They are going on a silent strike as that is the last drip of their bargaining power. We then get lessons that the poor are poor because of laziness.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by callmeal on Monday June 21, 2021 @07:47AM (#27578273)
>In fact, people who are working are much more likely to engage in other community activities and volunteer.

I can definitely say that people who are forced to work with capricious scheduling, or those that have to work more than one job just to survive are a lot less likely to do that.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by Siira on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:51AM (#27577420)
> I think it would be amazing if most people didn’t have to work for a living.

Who doesn't? But we are not in a post-scarcity economy.

Re:Policies that make the poor less poor by imtringued on Monday June 21, 2021 @10:35AM (#27579591)
We aren't. We are merely in a buyers market for labor and a sellers market for housing which is squeezing workers.