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Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by saurik on Tuesday July 12, 2011 @04:52PM (#2756511)
Down-thread of this comment, people have already discussed numerous issues with the assumption that DHCP leases are stable when not in use (such as that servers often choose to allocate out of an artificially small pool of addresses, and ping old addresses to determine if they are in use before simply reclaiming and reassigning them).
Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by bradleyland on Tuesday July 12, 2011 @05:01PM (#2756557)
Like I said, if you're uncomfortable with the trade-off, avoid Apple devices. Personally, I only see the number of devices like the iPad/iPhone increasing, and I'm relatively confident that your normal user doesn't give a damn about any of this. They want the device to work when they turn it on.

I'd also argue that any DHCP server that applies that policy of artificially limiting the IP pool by re-issuing non-expired leases is an asinine implementation.

Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by jarek on Tuesday July 12, 2011 @05:28PM (#2756675)
Well, sure, but the problem is that the Apple device user doesn't suffer from the negative consequences of the non-standard action. Other users do.

Of course people are going to like devices that allow them to cut in line if there is a little bit of space.

Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by bronson on Wednesday July 13, 2011 @11:12AM (#2759193)
Non-standard action? It's standardized by RFC 4436!
Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by philjr on Thursday July 14, 2011 @07:17PM (#2765597)
Not all RFCs are standards. See http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1796 entitled "Not all RFCs are standards" :)
Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by shinratdr on Tuesday July 12, 2011 @06:27PM (#2756909)
> Like I said, if you're uncomfortable with the trade-off, avoid Apple devices.

Something tells me Saurik is a tad more invested at this point, it's not really as simple as "avoiding Apple devices" when you are the dev of Cydia.

Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by bradleyland on Wednesday July 13, 2011 @05:14PM (#2760716)
I know next to nothing about iOS as it relates to Darwin, but if the DHCP stack is part of Darwin, it'll be OSS, which means someone could patch the DHCP client to not exhibit this behavior.

How many people do you think would install that patch?

* Resolves potential IP conflicts when recovering from sleep

* Adds 10s to network availability in most situations

Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by shinratdr on Thursday July 14, 2011 @04:24PM (#2764914)
Nobody. For the record I agree with you, I wasn't defending saurik just pointing out that your resolution was inadequate as he is overly invested at this point.
Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by pyre on Tuesday July 12, 2011 @05:23PM (#2756653)

  > They want the device to work when they turn it on.
If there is a collision, then this doesn't 'just work' when the user turns it on. Just sayin'. From the user's perspective the device should never fail, in any situation, for any reason... ever. Users don't care about trade-offs because they don't want to trade anything off, they want it all, 5 minutes ago.
Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by shinratdr on Tuesday July 12, 2011 @06:30PM (#2756920)
> If there is a collision, then this doesn't 'just work' when the user turns it on.

No, it just potentially kicks off another user. I've never been unable to acquire an IP because of this practice, I've just seen other people's wireless mysteriously give up the ghost when I connect with my iPhone or Mac. I would prefer to have the aggressive device, personally.

Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by bradleyland on Wednesday July 13, 2011 @09:21AM (#2758849)
You're falsely attributing this behavior to your iPhone/Mac. Keep a couple of things in mind:

* If you have a valid lease, there should be no conflicting IP addresses on the network

* Even if you do have a conflicting IP address, that conflict only exists until the DHCP server issues you a new one (iOS immediately performs the DHCP request after sniffing)

IP conflicts are not voodoo magic. Once the conflicting machine gets a new IP address, everything returns to normal. The network events shown in the article show that this occurs in about 1s; between the time that the interface comes up, 0.3s, and the time the interface is active, 1.3s. If this were a full negotiation, it would take around 5s.

The key thing to remember is that this shouldn't happen at all on healthy networks. So, if anyone chooses to remain opposed to this, they're saying that waiting 10s every time you wake a portable device from sleep and want to use the network connection is a worthwhile tradeoff to accommodate DHCP servers that don't respect leases and switches that can't adequately resolve an ARP entry conflict in a timely manner.

I've said it about ten times in this discussion already, but I'll keep the ten seconds (times 15-20 sleep/wake events per day) and buy decent network equipment.

Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by derleth on Wednesday July 13, 2011 @05:31AM (#2758372)
> I would prefer to have the aggressive device, personally.

So, by basic game theory, everyone implements 'asshole mode' in their devices. What happens on a technical level when every device behaves like that?

Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by nicolasp on Wednesday July 13, 2011 @07:36AM (#2758601)
Router vendors start saving DHCP lease tables to stable storage and the issue is fixed?
Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by shinratdr on Wednesday July 13, 2011 @03:31PM (#2760266)
> What happens on a technical level when every device behaves like that?

We start putting battery backup in routers so they won't drop their DHCP tables? This isn't asshole mode, it's "assume the network is functioning properly and hasn't been reset" mode. In the world of portable devices, it's important to look at where we waste time and compensating for errors is a frequent culprit.

Re:Rapid DHCP: Or, how do Macs get on the network so fast? by Locke1689 on Tuesday July 12, 2011 @05:59PM (#2756800)
This implementation will always work for the Apple device that's connecting.