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Re:Declining trust in government is denting democracy (2017) by ravenstine on Saturday June 19, 2021 @10:33AM (#27560733)
It's essentially the same kind of alienation Marx talks about. Replace "workers" with "taxpayers" and it perfectly describes the situation. Even if taxes did go towards useful things, the average taxpayer is simply too detached from their rewards.

There's a lot I don't agree with Marx on, but I think he was right on the aspect of alienation.

Re:Declining trust in government is denting democracy (2017) by jl2718 on Saturday June 19, 2021 @10:45AM (#27560834)
There is a difference. Capitalists are not allowed to arrest and/or kill for non-compliance.

Well... (noting the date) not anymore at least.

Re:Declining trust in government is denting democracy (2017) by lucian1900 on Saturday June 19, 2021 @11:51AM (#27561538)
Capitalists are in control of the state, so of course they do. Try taking over your workplace, the police will come for you.
Re:Declining trust in government is denting democracy (2017) by chii on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:17AM (#27567321)
> Try taking over your workplace

aka, try stealing, and you get arrested.

Re:Declining trust in government is denting democracy (2017) by lucian1900 on Sunday June 20, 2021 @05:33AM (#27568497)
So the ruling class (capitalists) have defined what theft is and have armed bodies to enforce it.

Profits aren’t somehow defined as theft, despite all value being produced by the labour of workers, who are paid a fraction of the value they produce.

Re:Declining trust in government is denting democracy (2017) by chii on Sunday June 20, 2021 @06:53AM (#27568867)
> all value being produced by the labour of workers, who are paid a fraction of the value they produce

only if you believe that the capital being used to produce value - including the wages being paid upfront - are valueless.

Re:Declining trust in government is denting democracy (2017) by lucian1900 on Sunday June 20, 2021 @07:19AM (#27569000)
Is that capital also not produced by workers, in the past? It’s a form of crystallised labour.

Also, does a fixed initial investment entitle one to a fraction of all future (variable) value produced? Why?

Re:Declining trust in government is denting democracy (2017) by chii on Sunday June 20, 2021 @07:29AM (#27569066)
All investments entitle one to all future productivity produced from said investment. This is the central idea of ownership.

The new capital is _produced_ by the workers, but it was done with initial capital that is _owned_ by the capitalist. So unless you agree that these initial capital is not worth anything (despite it being required), how can _all_ capital belong to the workers that made it? After all, the workers agreed to receive their wage in exchange for producing, using the seed capital supplied by the capitalist.

Re:Declining trust in government is denting democracy (2017) by lucian1900 on Sunday June 20, 2021 @07:33AM (#27569095)
The initial capital entitles the investor to a fraction of all labour, in perpetuity? Without any further work or investment?

Yes, this appropriation is central to the capitalist idea of ownership. Another word for that is theft.