Re:1931: Kurt Gödel shows limits of math, logic, computing, AI
by wizzwizz4 on Thursday June 17, 2021 @05:28PM
(#27544666)
Many-core and networked computer systems fight indeterminacy. My networking algorithms would be a lot simpler if I could guarantee that everything operated in lockstep; the fact that I have to discard lockstep to get performance is because lockstep is a high-cost abstraction over a high-entropy (so, basically non-deterministic) underlying reality, not because indeterminacy is somehow inherently better.
It's a concession.
Re:1931: Kurt Gödel shows limits of math, logic, computing, AI
by ProfHewitt on Thursday June 17, 2021 @06:30PM
(#27545156)
A concession to the physical world?
Re:1931: Kurt Gödel shows limits of math, logic, computing, AI
by wizzwizz4 on Friday June 18, 2021 @09:54AM
(#27550321)
For networking, yes. For multicore, it's merely a concession to the fact that instructions on my architecture are variable-length, and there's a transparent cache mechanism (requiring knowledge of memory access patterns, which requires knowing the result of the computation ahead of time).
Re:1931: Kurt Gödel shows limits of math, logic, computing, AI
by ProfHewitt on Friday June 18, 2021 @12:28PM
(#27552050)
Because arbiters are used in communications among cores,
a many-core computer has inherent indeterminacy.
Re:1931: Kurt Gödel shows limits of math, logic, computing, AI
by wizzwizz4 on Friday June 18, 2021 @01:50PM
(#27552949)
Not necessarily? If you have a real-time OS and you write your program well, you can synchronise timings and have cores send messages to each other without queues. It's hard to write fast code that does that, but in narrow circumstances, it's possible (I'm thinking embedded applications) – and when it is possible, it's faster than the equivalent algorithm with indeterminacy.
Indeterminacy slows things down. It's a concession.
Re:1931: Kurt Gödel shows limits of math, logic, computing, AI
by ProfHewitt on Friday June 18, 2021 @03:35PM
(#27554037)
Indeterminacy using many=cores speeds up processing.
Enforced determinacy slows down processing.
Re:1931: Kurt Gödel shows limits of math, logic, computing, AI
by wizzwizz4 on Friday June 18, 2021 @06:00PM
(#27555481)
And natural determinacy, if you can get it, speeds up processing more than indeterminacy. The useful question is “what's the lowest-level model I can usefully use?”, not “can I do it with indeterminacy?”.
Do you think the above statement is wrong? If so, why?
Re:1931: Kurt Gödel shows limits of math, logic, computing, AI
by ProfHewitt on Saturday June 19, 2021 @09:33PM
(#27566235)
Indeterminacy is crucial for next generation Intelligent System.
See
depend crucially on indeterminacy in order to gain
performance.
See the following
https://papers.ssrn.com/abstract=3459566