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Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by krastanov on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @03:26PM (#27532432)
In many community forums I have seen this dynamics: New member says something rude but factual or just misrepresents what another member had said; Moderator says something along the lines of "please be more polite or restrict bikesheding/flamewars to the appropriate subforum"; The new member starts litigating how come the moderator can demand that if it is not in the "official rules".

Codes of conduct deal with these self-absorbed members (they are not trolls necessarily). CoC probably help with many other things, but taking care of this low hanging fruit is already an incredible improvement.

It is sad that we need to make rules like "do not be a jerk", but sometime ago I was disillusioned from the idea that such rules are self-evident. They mean very different things to different people, so defining them ends up being useful.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by Karrot_Kream on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:08PM (#27532892)
> It is sad that we need to make rules like "do not be a jerk", but sometime ago I was disillusioned from the idea that such rules are self-evident.

It's not about the _rule_ being non-self-evident, it's about enforcement being uneven. Most humans will tend to perceive lower negativity and rule-breaking behavior in viewpoints they agree with than in viewpoints they don't. A formal statement of rules allows a community to try to do away with this bias. A documented set of rules also allows a community to reflect on their own norms and allows them to make changes to their norms as the viewpoints of the community change.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by quanticle on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:28PM (#27533108)
>A formal statement of rules allows a community to try to do away with this bias

I'm not sure I would state it as trying to do away with bias. Bias is inescapable. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that bias is a good thing, insofar as we want communities to be biased towards things that they prioritize and biased away from things that they don't. What a code of conduct does, in the best case, is allow a community to be explicit about its biases, allowing prospective contributors to see up-front exactly what kind of community they're joining.

Of course, there are plenty of cases communities implement codes of conduct poorly, usually in response to some crisis.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by Karrot_Kream on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:38PM (#27533205)
> Bias is inescapable

Sure

> I'd go so far as to say that bias is a good thing, insofar as we want communities to be biased towards things that they prioritize and biased away from things that they don't

I'd argue that this depends on the community. For some communities, sure, but for others not necessarily. A discussion/debate club or a book club is probably more interested in plural viewpoints. A game discussion site probably much less so, and a support group probably has a very narrow set of allowed viewpoints. But it depends.

> What a code of conduct does, in the best case, is allow a community to be explicit about its biases, allowing prospective contributors to see up-front exactly what kind of community they're joining.

Indeed. But also, communities aren't unified or static things. Different members of a community, even founding members (as we can see with TFA), will have different viewpoints on what the community means for them. A formal statement of rules lets everyone agree on an explicit, documented set of common rules that they feel accurately represent their community.

When I was younger I ran or helped run many small and medium size organizations and I've never been in one with unanimous opinions, even among very friendly founding members. Creating explicit rules has always been an improvement in pretty much any community I've been in with over 10 members. Leaving rules and procedures undocumented always resulted in games of shadow politics where there were tacit holders of power and tacit power groups and frustrated newcomers.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by Arnavion on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @03:38PM (#27532553)
CoCs have a bad reputation because many of them are written without a clear set of rules, often intentionally so that the authors have leeway to adapt the vague rules for new behaviors they want to ban. This can be considered a good thing (don't need to amend the CoC for what is "obviously" bad behavior that the original didn't account for) or a bad thing ("it's not obviously bad behavior, you just made it up so you can ban me via the CoC because you disagree with me").
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by zxzax on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:55PM (#27533362)
If you think those rules are vague and unclear, it's even worse when there is no code of conduct and the project's entire policy is "we do whatever the moderators feel that day."
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by quanticle on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:22PM (#27533048)
>Codes of conduct deal with these self-absorbed members

Do they? It seems to me that a Code of Conduct just gives these sorts of people an entirely new set of rules to litigate/bikeshed. If the Code of Conduct prohibits personal attacks, for example, the sorts of people who will harangue mods for admonishing them to be nice will, instead, harangue the mods about how their statement wasn't actually a personal attack.

>It is sad that we need to make rules like "do not be a jerk"

I don't think the problem is in the rules or lack thereof. I think the problem is there in the (lack of) enforcement. Many internet communities are allergic to anything that smacks of "censorship", and thus find themselves at a loss whenever someone comes along and willfully violates community norms. We should remember that "well kept gardens die by pacifism" [1], and no matter how detailed and elaborate the rules, someone needs to be willing to actually enforce them. A Code of Conduct (or some other formalized set of rules) can help here insofar as it allows the moderator to point to something outside their own thoughts as a justification for why they're taking action against a transgressive community member.

However, it's possible to go too far. Wikipedia is a great example of what happens when rules become too elaborate. There are many trolls on Wikipedia who are around simply because they've mastered the arcana of the various rules and procedures Wikipedia has built up in its efforts to create an "objective" standard of community behavior. Whenever they're brought up for discipline, they can point to some previous case where superficially similar behavior was excused.

[1]: https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/tscc3e5eujrsEeFN4/well-ke...

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by zxzax on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:59PM (#27533404)
>the sorts of people who will harangue mods for admonishing them to be nice will, instead, harangue the mods about how their statement wasn't actually a personal attack.

The solution there would be to make clear what constitutes a personal attack. No reason to bikeshed over it.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by jasonschlatt on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @08:10PM (#27534909)
You can learn to push situations (using your behaviour) to obfuscate "what's actually a personal attack" greatly. Wrap your attack and words in the political language du jour, play to the biases of the moderator, there's a million ways to do it.
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by zxzax on Thursday June 17, 2021 @11:42AM (#27540849)
It seems it's pretty easy for an unbiased observer to spot that. In cases where a moderator is too biased, that's why there are multiple moderators that would all collectively make decisions about the code of conduct.
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by jasonschlatt on Friday June 18, 2021 @04:06PM (#27554387)
The sorts of people who choose to be moderators- especially of a project with a politically tilted code of conduct - are wont to engage in political consensus-building. Shifting and shrinking the overton window till they all know what the acceptable views are and an orthodoxy is built. This'll happen unless the moderators are mentally diverse. However, as the expansion of moderator teams and moderation generally is usually politically driven, this doesn't tend to be the case.

It's easy to spot! Not that there are unbiased observers. Just ones that are and aren't biased against you in particular. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by feminintendo on Saturday June 19, 2021 @11:18AM (#27561221)
Sums up Linus Torvalds perfectly.
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by toolz on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @03:33PM (#27532503)
The rules being defined would attempt to be useful, I'm sure. I'm curious if they actually are. So many things are done socially with good intentions that people just assume are working. Society is complicated though. As I understand it, well meaning, reasonable actions don't always have the intended outcomes.

Now I'm certainly not claiming a CoC has unintended outcomes, but surely as often as I see them recommended (and at times even demanded), I would hope there exists decent evidence of their usefulness.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by nicoburns on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:03PM (#27532841)
I think like many formalisation, they are a tool that is useful within the right culture, but are useless in the absence of that culture. The Rust Community is an excellent example of a community with an effective and well-enforced CoC that has contributed towards creating a community that is renowned for being welcoming. But I suspect that has at least as much the attitude of early community leaders (Graydon Hoare, Brian Anderson, Huon Wilson, Aaron Turon, etc) on these issues and ongoing excellent moderation of community platforms from a dedicated team of moderators.
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by wearywanderer on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @03:31PM (#27532483)
So, "No."