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Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by _greim_ on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:18PM (#27449690)
I recently went down the Geoist/LVT rabbit-hole myself. It strikes me as uniquely appealing across the political spectrum, since it reduces tax on wealth-creation AND redistributes wealth from the rich to the poor.

Sadly, this very fact provokes enough superficial resistance to keep it out of the Overton window. Whenever it comes up, shouters on either side have plenty of ammo to blast it, saying things to the effect of "how could you propose giving the other side what they want!?!"

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by pydry on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:25PM (#27449813)
It is kept out of the Overton window because the rich guard nothing more jealously than their unearned income.

It's not like you or I get to decide what goes in the window.

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by oh_sigh on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:53PM (#27450204)
It's never appealing to make a long time member of a community leave because they can no longer afford the land they've owned for years, because other people say "I want that"

I move to a cheap, small town. I embed myself in the community and help build it up over decades. And then, at the peak popularity, in part due to my presence, I am forced out, because someone who has never been here says that they would like to live here.

You don't see a problem with this?

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by kaibee on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:03PM (#27450353)
> I move to a cheap, small town. I embed myself in the community and help build it up over decades. And then, at the peak popularity, in part due to my presence, I am forced out, because someone who has never been here says that they would like to live here.

Why would you be forced out? Yes, taxes on the underlying land would increase because it is more valuable, but you would be able to move into a new property in the same community, as housing would increase in density. Now if you don't want to live in a denser community, that's fine, but you don't really have a right to prevent the densification.

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by sokoloff on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:12PM (#27450468)
It sounds to me like GP’s concern is that their LVT would go up (across the entire town) due to popularity and become unaffordable (forcing them out economically), rather than being concerned with increasing density.
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by oh_sigh on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:09PM (#27452505)
So I would need to sell the 2 BR single family home I've lived in for 30 years, and move to some other part of town to live in a 1BR apartment, because someone from some other part of the country can pay more in tax for the property I've lived on?
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by nitrogen on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:03PM (#27451061)
And then, at the peak popularity, in part due to my presence, I am forced out, because someone who has never been here says that they would like to live here.

This is exactly what is happening in parts of Utah. Planners accounted for natural growth and a standard rate of in-migration, but there has been a flood of people from out of state forcing out the locals who made these places what they are by living in them for decades.

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by _greim_ on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:15PM (#27451204)
I guess I'm confused; how is this not a description of the current system? How are LVTs supposed to make this kind of thing worse?
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by oh_sigh on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @04:00PM (#27452402)
It may be in some areas, not in others - depending on how their tax system works. Prop 13(which has massive flaws and abuses) in CA is an example, as well as states which just generally have low property tax rates because they derive their revenue from other sources like income tax.
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by skosch on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:15PM (#27450504)
Most proposals in this direction (e.g. Glen Weyl's "Radical Markets", [1]) make reasonable exemptions for basic personal needs, so people don't get thrown out of their (modest) homes or lose their personal belongings unexpectedly. The point isn't to kick you out of your village, it's to make speculative investments in real estate unattractive.

[1] http://assets.press.princeton.edu/chapters/s11222.pdf

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by rcpt on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:01PM (#27450313)
You've obviously never seen a Nextdoor thread about rent control.
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by dnautics on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @01:33PM (#27450697)
You don't think geoism is just naive? This idea that the state can magically assign a value to property and not have it go sideways for the politically disenfranchised (the poor) is pure fantasy. If you haven't gone through the process of buying a house. I suggest trying it (especially during a frothy market), and each step of the way stop and think, "how would geoism get turned around to screw the poor".
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by _greim_ on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:29PM (#27451356)
I'll give the standard reply here: this sounds mainly like a criticism of the current system. Are you specifically proposing some loophole in geoism that could be gamed in such a way to make things worse for the poor, beyond how things stand in the current system? Or is this more of a "things will end up badly for the poor no matter what we do" kind of sentiment? I can certainly understand that, but it isn't a good excuse for apathy.
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by dnautics on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:25PM (#27453431)
It concentrates an important axis of power (setting prices on a rivalrous good) into the hands of the few. That is necessarily worse for the disenfranchised. I thought that was clear from my comment, I guess not.

My statement is not one of apathy, but a prediction of worse comparative outcomes with mechanistic backing.

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by _greim_ on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:32PM (#27453510)
Who are "the few" in this case?
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by fighterpilot on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:08PM (#27451114)
Poor people don't own property, though. So how could it disenfranchise them?
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by dnautics on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:16PM (#27451210)
In this case, I am saying that political disenfranchisement is the dominant reason for poverty, and how well meaning policies can wind putting in barriers poor people from owning property in the first place. I'm sure you can imagine how this closes the cycle.
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by fighterpilot on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:19PM (#27451239)
Wouldn't the LVT reduce property prices, which counteracts that?
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by dnautics on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:20PM (#27451259)
> Wouldn't the LVT reduce property prices, which counteracts that?

1. Don't assume

2. If you are poor, which do you think is easier? A higher initial capital expenditure? Or a higher upkeep cost?

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by fighterpilot on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:46PM (#27451543)
It will reduce property prices, ceteris paribus. The only ambiguity is if the extent is such that it fully offsets the opposite impact of higher upkeep cost from the perspective of a poor person. I don't know the answer to that question, do you?

Another factor: it'll encourage apartment construction, which will increase housing supply, which should help poor people.

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by neilparikh on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:13PM (#27451862)
> 2. If you are poor, which do you think is easier? A higher initial capital expenditure? Or a higher upkeep cost?

Higher upkeep cost is the easier one. Many poor people have a steady an income, but no saved wealth. That's why there are many people able to pay 1800/mo for rent for years, and never able to buy their own home.

And this would make LVT the better option for a poor person, since it would turn "buying" a home into "renting" the land from the state, along with buying the building, which is obviously possible (as seen by the existence of poor renters).

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by dnautics on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:22PM (#27453393)
> Many poor people have a steady an income

I see you've not been poor.

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by neilparikh on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:55AM (#27457229)
The relevant case is people who have no income, but have a substantial amount of wealth (enough to buy a home). I'm not sure how you can consider that poor.
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by dnautics on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:40AM (#27461302)
No. if you are poor, it is a real dynamic to get modestly frequent, but unreliable bumps in income. Of course these days there is no incentive to save that because of inflation, but if that weren't as much of a problem, you could consider saving up to buy a home, but you ABSOLUTELY cannot count on those sorts of things to sustain a mortgage payment, or land taxes. Like I said, you don't understand. Please, do not ever be in a place where you are making policy.
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by neilparikh on Saturday June 12, 2021 @04:27PM (#27487209)
I understand what you’re getting at a bit better now, but you still haven’t explained why the current situation, where one needs to save 20% for the down payment, and then pay a monthly mortgage payment, is better for the poor.

Where are these places where the buying prices of land is cheap, but the land tax would be high? The buying prices is simply the year rent divided by some discount rate, so typically, the buying price would 20x the yearly rent/tax. That’s a large amount to have to save up (assuming a mortgage is out, like you say).

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by larsiusprime on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:44PM (#27451523)
This is a fully general refutation of ANY system, because rich people game every system, including and especially the current one. Why should the current one be favored?

The trick is to find a system that, despite attempts to game it, has an incentive structure that isn't already explicitly tilted in favor of the rich. Geoism is one such system.

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by dnautics on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:23PM (#27453414)
I aver that it's more difficult for a rich person to game a decentralized system than a centralized one. A land tax necessarily concentrates an important axis of power into the hands of fewer people.
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by notahacker on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @12:32PM (#27449908)
It's less to do with appeal to people on the other side of economic divides, and more to do with the impossibility of selling "the great thing is that it incentivises your next door neighbour to build a high rise" and "sure, your parents will have to downsize because their pension won't cover the tax burden of the house they spent their lifetime saving for, but on the other hand it's great how many investors and companies don't have to pay any tax at all" to the average voter, who cares a lot more about such concrete matters than handwavy claims about efficiency or equity.
Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by _greim_ on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @02:53PM (#27451625)
> the great thing is that it incentivises your next door neighbour to build a high rise

This is more about NIMBY attitudes and zoning laws, which are separate issues.

> their pension won't cover the tax burden of the house they spent their lifetime saving for

An LVT won't tax the house, only the value of the land. If the plot itself is hyper-valuable, that's not a bad place to be, financially speaking. Beyond that, "won't someone think of the poor landowners?" doesn't strike me as a very compelling argument in this day and age.

Re:If you sell a house these days, the buyer might be a pens... by notahacker on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @03:40PM (#27452166)
> This is more about NIMBY attitudes and zoning laws, which are separate issues.

NIMBY issues and zoning laws are very much not separate issues when one of the chief selling points of LVT is building denser. It's a selling point the public aren't buying because they mostly don't want the value-maximising development next door, and being taxed as if they could develop it whilst still living in a zoned area so they can't is obviously worse. Sure, an LVT can be designed with deductions and exemptions for land use restrictions (and would have to be), but that's conceding away one of its key purported advantages.

> An LVT won't tax the house, only the value of the land. If the plot itself is hyper-valuable, that's not a bad place to be, financially speaking. Beyond that, "won't someone think of the poor landowners?" doesn't strike me as a very compelling argument in this day and age.

"Let's ignore the poor landowners" is a much worse place to be if you're trying to win over the large portion of the electorate which owns some land, which in most cases is probably the second most valuable thing they own after the house they live in (which is separate from the land for tax valuation purposes, but not in the reality that if they can't afford the land it sits on, they're under pressure to sell their home) and not closely coupled to their current income. The general principle of Georgist efficiency is that people on low incomes relative to the value of the land their house are forced to sell and this should drive down land prices for everyone, but the prospect of devaluation or forced sale of very expensive stuff they've already paid for is even less appealing to voters than being taxed on next year's unspent income. (Also, the entities which own the majority of the land turn out to be both less profitable and more relevant to the cost of basic goods like food than the businesses liberated from tax)

Regardless of whether you think these are not insurmountable problems for LVT or not, the thought of being caricatured as the guy who wants the tax system to force people to develop their homes into nice efficient apartment towers or sell in a great hurry to someone with deeper pockets is a much bigger concern for politicians than the thought people with different economic philosophies might actually agree with them for a change.