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Re:The Consciousness of Invertebrates by nabla9 on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @04:32PM (#27440379)
I was not taking about consciousness, just intelligence.

There is no reason to assume that intelligence and consciousness are strongly related. Why automaton can't be conscious. One may require another but I don't see why if one is more intelligent one has more consciousness. Or reflective etc.

> If we have no free will, we too are automatons,

In deepest philosophical sense free will not well defined or it's nonsensical statement. Albert Einstein said it well:

“Honestly, I cannot understand what people mean when they talk about the freedom of the human will. I have a feeling, for instance, that I will something or other; but what relation this has with freedom I cannot understand at all. I feel that I will to light my pipe and I do it; but how can I connect this up with the idea of freedom? What is behind the act of willing to light the pipe? Another act of willing? Schopenhauer once said: Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will (Man can do what he will but he cannot will what he wills).”

Re:The Consciousness of Invertebrates by wcarss on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @05:43PM (#27441297)
I don't understand at all who is downvoting you here! I appreciate the thoughtful and wonderful response you've put in, so thank you. I wish so much that people wouldn't use votes to express mild disagreement.

I thought you were suggesting that animals are not conscious, and saying that you believe so because they are not detectably intelligent, suggesting a direct correspondence between the two. Instead it seems like you and I more or less agree on the matter: no correlation, and even an automaton could be conscious.

Thanks also for the interesting Einstein quote. I don't agree that free will is nonsensical to such a degree that it cannot be discussed, but I do agree it is not well defined.

I hoped to sidestep the vagueness of free will by discussing it in the meta sense of 'what broad philosophical consensus is held about it', i.e. that there is rather little to say for certain, but even what most people hold to be true doesn't seem to rule out the idea of an automaton being conscious.

Re:The Consciousness of Invertebrates by dTal on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @06:48AM (#27446423)
I hazard that some people find attacks on the idea of free will to be philosophically or even politically threatening. If our behavior is deterministic, at any level, how can anything be anyone's fault? Ideas like "justice" and "accountability" are forced into crisis. "That criminal doesn't "deserve" prison, they had a bad childhood!" And maybe this is correct and proper at some level. But powerful evolutionary forces have shaped us not to think this way. It is adaptive to become angry, to punish those who wrong you or your tribe; to treat people as agents rather than phenomena.

And so people downvote.

Re:The Consciousness of Invertebrates by nabla9 on Wednesday June 09, 2021 @05:03AM (#27445793)
Compatibilism seems to be relatively broad philosophical consensus. It's a position that free will is compatible with determinism. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/