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Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by zahma on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:13AM (#27423537)
It does make sense that a soldier didn’t know. On the other hand, the American military knew of Auschwitz and Birkenau, had the opportunity to bomb and incapacitate it, and didn’t apparently at the request of FDR to direct all munitions toward winning the war. His administration was implored by escapees and refugees. One of the greatest tragedies of many during the war.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by Animats on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:07PM (#27425923)
Old issue. See [1]

"The first proposal to bomb Auschwitz was made on 16 May 1944 by a Slovak rabbi." That was 3 weeks before D-Day (June 6, 1944).

Eisenhower's policy was to defeat Germany, and not get distracted. He had planned to bypass Paris, which wasn't on the route to Berlin.[2] (De Gaulle went off-script and liberated Paris ahead of schedule, but that's another story.) Eisenhower was trying to hold an alliance with different goals together. All the allies were agreed on "defeat Germany", but there were other national goals. Britain was concerned about preserving its empire, for example. To hold the alliance together, Eisenhower focused on "win the war" above all else.

The person this article is about was in the Red Army. "One of just 69 men in his 12,000-strong division to survive the war, Mr Dushman suffered serious injuries during the conflict". The USSR had about 20 million casualties in WWII. Never forget that.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate

[2] https://www.historynet.com/the-generals-who-brought-paris-ba...

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by FridayoLeary on Monday June 07, 2021 @07:01PM (#27428413)
The "Slovak Rabbi" was Michael Ber Weissmandel. If FDR and co. had demonstrated even a fraction of his determination to save his fellow Jews, many hundreds of thousands could have been saved. That "not getting distracted" is an absolutely terrible excuse. If FDR had acted, the almost 1 million Hungarian jews still living might not have perished.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by ghufran_syed on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:18AM (#27423610)
Wouldn’t bombing the camp kill the prisoners? Or are you suggesting that they could have successfully bombed and “incapacitated” the camp without killing the prisoners? How exactly?
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by apendleton on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:03PM (#27427711)
There were probably some who wanted to try something targeted/infrastructural to avoid that, but there were also some advocates (including Jewish ones) who explicitly supported bombing the camps, including their occupants, because even if they died, it would be net-life-saving as future waves of trains would no longer have a place to go.

PBS's "Secrets of the Dead" series did an episode about this last year: https://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/bombing-auschwitz-wnrzgw/47...

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by bmmayer1 on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:14PM (#27424256)
The Americans strafed the concentration camp my grandfather was working at in 1944 from air -- my grandpa still carries a scar from that. It was definitely not an easy decision to attack or not attack these camps.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by rabidonrails on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:58PM (#27424921)
I think the general "hope" was to bomb the train tracks so that they couldn't keep bringing trainloads of people to the camps. This could be done without bombing barracks of people.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by GistNoesis on Monday June 07, 2021 @03:56PM (#27426681)
My grandfather used to tell me how one time he "flew" with his "bed" when he was there ;

How he woke up safe on his bed in the middle of the courtyard ; There were walls when he had gone to sleep before, but the walls weren't there anymore.

When I became older, I learned that fifty prisoners in his barrack had died this night.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by rad_gruchalski on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:34AM (#27423793)
Destroying the gas chambers would probably save thousands.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by jaclaz on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:51AM (#27423989)
Well, giving the accuracy of the bombings at the time it wasn't simply possible.

Objectives (such as bridges) were often missed by hundreds of meters.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by Someone on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:30PM (#27424480)
Optimist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butt_Report:

“Of those aircraft recorded as attacking their target, only one in three got within 5 mi (8.0 km).”

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/worldwar2/thea... has data for later years. It got better, but stayed bad.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/1008daylight/:

“Bombing accuracy was terrible. The average circular error in 1943 was 1,200 feet, meaning that only 16 percent of the bombs fell within 1,000 feet of the aiming point”

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by rad_gruchalski on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:21PM (#27424346)
I agree. Hence the scale of the bombings in WW2. But the camp operated multiple years. Maybe there was a price to pay but in the long run, maybe it would have been worth taking a chance. We will never now, it’s a maybe game.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by kevinmchugh on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:58AM (#27424091)
We're Monday morning quarterbacking, but I wonder if destroying the railroad lines into the camps would've been effective. Less chance for a missed bomb to kill camp prisoners, lots of opportunity to hit the tracks.

I think the same trains or tracks that carried prisoners carried the (paltry) food for the camps, so I guess it's a trolley problem still.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by thrill on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:10PM (#27424208)
Destroying rail lines is even harder and generally temporary. They're fairly easily repaired within a few days, given material and labor.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by bitcurious on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:57PM (#27424903)
Babi Yar and the hundreds of similar tragedies show that the Germans had no trouble killing Jews using more conventional means.

It might have helped but it’s far from a certainty.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by rad_gruchalski on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:06PM (#27427773)
That’s right, and 200000 in Warsaw. It’s not certain, however, approximately 1.1 million people died in gas chambers. Let’s not forget about the atrocities of those who were not sent to the gas chamber. It’s all ifs and maybes but maybe the camp would have to be abandoned if mass gassing wasn’t possible.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by samatman on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @12:03AM (#27430535)
Plenty of concentration camps didn't have gas chambers.

The tools of killing were bullets, disease, and starvation.

The Nazis ran out of many things, towards the end of the war. But never bullets.

Edit: I have no idea why people are doing the drive by downvote thing here? Maybe you think I'm denying that gas chambers were real?

No. I'm saying there were concentration camps without them, where prisoners were mass-murdered as I described above. That statement is not controversial.

I don't think destroying the gas chambers would have been enough to stop Auschwitz.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by samatman on Tuesday June 08, 2021 @12:01AM (#27430526)
The best payoff would have been the train tracks running into the camps.

But how many planes would this have taken? How many would have been lost? No loss was affordable during most of the war; industrial production won it for the Allies as much as anything did.

There were no easy decisions to make.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by FridayoLeary on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:49AM (#27423969)
FDR's inactivity during the war, regarding the Jews is a very large, black stain on his legacy.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by reaperducer on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:26PM (#27424416)
had the opportunity to bomb and incapacitate it, and didn’t

War is not a video game.

Bombing an enemy concentration camp, especially with WWII-era weapons, would mean killing the people you're trying to save.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by bmmayer1 on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:16PM (#27424295)
Not necessarily. The international Red Cross was famously invited to tour Auschwitz[1] where they were given a carefully staged show of how well their prisoners were being treated. Plus prisoners would have been in danger.

[1]https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/theresiens...

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by goto11 on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:57PM (#27426586)
That was Theresienstadt, not Auschwitz. Theresienstadt was specifically staged as a "model camp" for propaganda purposes.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by bmmayer1 on Friday June 11, 2021 @07:51AM (#27472050)
You are right. My bad.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by rkk3 on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:36PM (#27428161)
It's questionable how much it would have inhibited their genocide capabilities, it almost certainly would have killed the people in the camps and it was only an option late in the war. Prioritizing strategic targets to end the war & regime faster is defensible.