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Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by endisneigh on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:05PM (#27242136)
Perhaps the government should have a team of people who randomly try to replicate science papers that are funded by the government.

The government can then reduce funding to institutions that have too high a percentage of research that failed to be replicated.

From that point the situation should resolve itself as institutions wouldn’t want to lose funding - so they’d either have an internal group replicate before publishing or coordinate with other institutions pre-publish.

Anything I’m missing?

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by Matumio on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:07AM (#27244543)
This sounds like doubling down on the approach was causing the problems.

The desire to control and incentivize researchers to compete against each other in order to justify their salary is understandable, but it looks like it has been blown so out of proportions lately that it's doing active harm. Most researchers start their career pretty self-motivated to do good research.

Installing another system to double-check every contribution will just increase the pressure to game the system in addition to doing research. And replicating a paper may sometimes cost as much as the original research, and it's not clear when to stop trying. How much collaboration with the original authors are you supposed to do, if you fail to replicate? If you are making decisions about their career, you will need some system to ensure it's not arbitrary, etc.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by rleigh on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:40PM (#27250066)
While I agree that "most" researchers start out with good intentions, I'm afraid I've directly and indirectly witnessed so many examples of fraud, data manipulation, wilful misrepresentation and outright incompetence, that I think we need some proper checks and balances put in place.

When people deliberately fake lab data to further their career, and that fake data is used to perform clinical trials on actual people, that's not just fraudulent, it's morally destitute. Yet this has happened.

People deliberately use improper statistics all the time to make their data "significant". It's outright fraud.

I've seen people doing sloppy work in the lab, and when questioning them, was told "no one cares so long as it's publishable". Coming from industry, where quality, accuracy and precision are paramount, I found the attitude shocking and repugnant. People should take pride and care in their work. If they can't do that, they shouldn't be working in the field.

PIs don't care so long as things are publishable. They live in wilful ignorance. Unless they are forced to investigate, it's easiest not to ask any questions and get unpleasant answers back. Many of them would be shocked if they saw the quality of work done by their underlings, but they live in an office and rarely get directly involved.

I've since gone back to industry. Academia is fundamentally broken.

When you say "double-checking" won't solve anything, I'd like to propose a different way of thinking about this:

* lab notebooks are supposed to be kept as a permanent record, checked and signed off. This rarely happens. It should be the responsibility of a manager to check and sign off every page, and question any changes or discrepancies.

* lab work needs independent validation, and lab workers should be able to prove their competence to perform tasks accurately and reproducibly; in industry labs do things like sending samples to reference labs, and receiving unknown samples to test, and these are used to calculate any deviation from the real value both between the reference lab and others in the same industry. They get ranked based upon their real-world performance.

* random external audits to check everything, record keeping, facilities, materials, data, working practices, with penalties for noncompliance.

Now, academic research is not the same as industry, but the point I'm making here is that what's largely missing here is oversight. By and large, there isn't any. But putting it in place would fix most of the problems, because most of the problems only exist because they are permitted to flourish in the absence of oversight. That's a failure of management in academia, globally. PIs aren't good managers. PIs see management in terms of academic prestige, and expanding their research group empires, but they are incompetent at it. They have zero training, little desire to do it, and it could be made a separate position in a department. Stop PIs managing, let them focus on science, and have a professional do it. And have compliance with oversight and work quality part of staff performance metrics, above publication quantity.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by pomian on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:14PM (#27242212)
This is what industry does though. That is in the less theoretical fields. If you actually want to make something that works, then you need to base your science on provable fact. Produce oil, build a cool structure, generate electricity. Based on amazing and complex science, but it has to work. Conclusion is that the science that is done needs to be provable, but that means practical. Which is unfortunate. Because what about all that science that may be, or one day may be, practical?
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by nradov on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:26PM (#27242745)
The trouble is, industrial researchers usually don't publish negative results or failures to reproduce. So it takes a long time to correct the published scientific record even if privately some people know it's wrong.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by walleeee on Friday May 21, 2021 @11:56PM (#27243290)
Indeed nobody tends to publish negative results or failures to reproduce unless there is already a monetary or social bounty on the question, it seems
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by taneq on Friday May 21, 2021 @09:47PM (#27242445)
This is like the xkcd test for weird science: Is some big boring company making billions with it? If so (quantum physics) then it’s legit. If not (healing crystals, orgone energy, essential oils...) it probably doesn’t work.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by logicchains on Saturday May 22, 2021 @08:02AM (#27245690)
>Is some big boring company making billions with it? If so (quantum physics) then it’s legit. If not (healing crystals, orgone energy, essential oils...) it probably doesn’t work.

That's no guarantee; in 2020 the US essential oils industry was worth $18.62 billion: https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/essentia... . Which is bigger than the US music recording industry (https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/the-us-recorded-music...).

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by visarga on Saturday May 22, 2021 @02:24AM (#27244049)
Research is non-linear and criteria based evaluation is lacking in perspective. You might throw away the baby with the bathwater. Advancement of science follows a deceptive path. Remember how the inventor of the mRNA method was shunned at her university just a few years ago? Because of things like that millions might die, but we can't tell beforehand which scientist is a visionary and who's a crackpot. If you close funding to seemingly useless research you might cut the next breakthrough.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by paulluuk on Saturday May 22, 2021 @02:51AM (#27244169)
I don't really see why "being shunned" or "being a visionary" has anything to do with this, to be honest. If you set up a simple rule: "the results have to be reproducable", then surely it shouldn't matter whether or not the theory is considered "crackpot" or "brilliant"?
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by visarga on Sunday May 23, 2021 @02:17AM (#27252817)
Reproducibility is 10x more expensive, you have to make sure you can replicate all the conditions exactly, and there are no thanks at the end for all that effort. The incentive is to publish instead of finding the truth.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by jacksonkmarley on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:39AM (#27245001)
I don't really like the idea of 'replication police', I think it would increase pressure on researchers who are doing their job of pushing the boundaries of science.

However, I think there is potential in taking the 'funded by the government' idea in a different direction. Having a publication house that was considered a public service, with scientists (and others) employed by the government and working to review and publish research without commercial pressures could be a way to redirect the incentives in science.

Of course this would be expensive and probably difficult to justify politically, but a country/bloc that succeeded in such long term support for science might end up with a very healthy scientific sector.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by smlss_sftwr on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:07PM (#27242602)
A few thoughts playing the devil's advocate:

- You would need some sort of barrier preventing movement of researchers between these audit teams and the institutions they are supposed to audit otherwise there would be a perverse incentive for a researcher to provide favorable treatment to certain institutions in exchange for a guaranteed position at said institutions later on. You could have an internal audit team audit the audit team, but you quickly run into an infinitely recursive structure and we'd have to question whether there would even be sufficient resources to support anything more than the initial team to begin with.

- From my admittedly limited experience as an economics research assistant in undergrad, I understood replication studies to be considered low-value projects that are barely worth listing on a CV for a tenure-track academic. That in conjunction with the aforementioned movement barrier would make such an auditing researcher position a career dead-end, which would then raise the question of which researchers would be willing to take on this role (though to be fair there would still be someone given the insane ratio of candidates in academia to available positions). The uncomfortable truth is that most researchers would likely jump at other opportunities if they are able to and this position would be a last resort for those who aren't able to land a gig elsewhere. I wouldn't doubt the ability of this pool of candidates to still perform quality work, but if some of them have an axe to grind (e.g. denied tenure, criticized in a peer review) that is another source of bias to be wary of as they are effectively being granted the leverage to cut off the lifeline for their rivals.

- You could implement a sort of academic jury duty to randomly select the members of this team to address the issues in the last point, which might be an interesting structure to consider further. I could still see conflict-of-interest issues being present especially if the panel members are actively involved in the field of research (and from what I've seen of academia, it's a bunch of high-intellect individuals playing by high school social rules lol) but it would at least address the incentive issue of self-selection. Perhaps some sort of election structure like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge_of_Venice#:~:text=Thirty%....) could be used to filter out conflict of interest, but it would make selecting the panel a much more involved and time-consuming process.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by dlgeek on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:07PM (#27249397)
The "Jury Duty" could easily be implemented in the existing grant structure - condition some new research grant on also doing an audit of some previous grant in your field (and fund it as part of the grant).
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by fighterpilot on Friday May 21, 2021 @10:23PM (#27242724)
Depending how big the stick is and how it's implemented, this might push people away from novel exploratory research that has a lower chance of replicating despite best efforts.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by koheripbal on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:37AM (#27246403)
Cost.