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Re:Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speak... by YeGoblynQueenne on Thursday May 20, 2021 @12:45PM (#27223541)
>> Sergio Serrano has participated in many international scientific conferences across the globe. "In a typical situation, a group of foreign researchers are discussing a complex technical issue with very precise and elaborate formal English," Serrano says, "until an American joins the group."

I'm not American but I don't like this. If an American author had written that everything is fine until "a foreigner joins the group" there would be a twitterstorm.

What's more, this is not about Americans, or even native English speakers. I'll give you a completely different example of how a group with a common language can exclude someone who doesn't quite share it.

I knew a couple were the woman was Greek and the man was from Chile. They lived in Greece and hung out with Greeks. I witnessed first hand, dozens of times, how the Chilean guy was left out of conversations. It happened in three phases. In the first phase, everyone would speak to him in English. This lasted for a few minutes, time enough to exchange greetings and pleasantries and so on. In the second phase, the Greeks would revert to speaking to each other in Greek. In the third stage, the Chilean man would try to join the conversation in Greek. At that point, the Greeks would reply in English. Then the process looped back to the second phase.

The Chilean guy was trying to learn Greek, but he never could - because nobody spoke to him in Greek long enough for him to learn it. He also failed to make any friends, because everyone spoke to him only for a short time, as long as they felt comfortable speaking in English.

Obviously I noticed this so I tried to rectify it by speaking to him only in Greek. We ended up code-switching a lot but at least we could keep going for a longer time than he did with others. I realised his frustration when we explicitly discussed how I spoke to him in Greek and he said, exasperated "you're the only one!".

Language can be a huge barrier that we raise subconsiously around us- but it doesn't help to single out one nationality for it. Everyone does it.

Re:Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speak... by Mediterraneo10 on Thursday May 20, 2021 @06:58PM (#27228488)
If your Chilean is having difficulties learning the local language to such a degree that people don’t tolerate his practicing attempts, then he might need to just sign up for a course where a teacher, paid to be patient, will work with him.

I love language-learning, and I can usually bootstrap myself to a level where the locals don’t reply in English when I want to practice. However, with Dutch I found it difficult to bootstrap and I experienced what your Chilean did. When I complained about how locals weren’t letting me practice, I was told (the famous Dutch directness!) that I needed to simply hire a teacher to get to a higher level, instead of being annoying to local people. People’s time is precious, and a foreigner speaking the local language haltingly is arguably disrespectful of their time.

Re:Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speak... by YeGoblynQueenne on Monday May 24, 2021 @03:55PM (#27268948)
This happened in conversation between friends and family and they were not Dutch but Greek. We are famous for our time-wasting culture, even more so than the Dutch are famous for being direct.
Re:Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speak... by today20201014 on Thursday May 20, 2021 @01:35PM (#27224321)
I'm an American; I don't like this, too.

My experience mirrors what is described in the article, but only with people from Europe. Non-native English speakers from Europe look down on Americans, in a sort of "gate-keeping" manner where Europeans "own" the language. They have a better grasp of the "precise and elaborate formal English" and do not hesitate to correct Americans and tell them they don't understand grammar and are uneducated. (I'm inclined to agree with them.)

My experience speaking with non-native speakers from Asia, India, and Central & South America has been different. Maybe we are more willing to accept that there is a language barrier, but no one "owns" it.

And, like the article says, trying to use a culturally relevant idiom is a futile task.

Re:Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speak... by ot on Thursday May 20, 2021 @12:56PM (#27223750)
> If an American author had written

This is a common pattern of false equivalency, like "reverse racism" and the likes.

The analogy is invalid because the harms of discrimination come from the power imbalance.

In this case, immigrants in the US are in a position of disadvantage, due to linguistic/cultural struggles and the perception issues they cause. Perpetuating stereotypes that reinforce that perception causes harm.

Re:Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speak... by YeGoblynQueenne on Thursday May 20, 2021 @01:27PM (#27224183)
I appreciate this of course, but for me any stereotype is harmful beause it teaches people to be intellectually lazy. From this intellectual laziness many evils are born and racism is one of them. If the goal is to eliminate racism, we're not going to get there any faster than we will by not accepting any stereotype at all, whatsoever, regardless of who is at the receiving end.