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Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by WalterBright on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:53PM (#27147309)
The Constitution is just a piece of paper. It is powerless if people ignore it.

It's the same with presidents, kings, and dictators. If people just stopped doing what they said, they become nothing.

There's an incident in Soviet history where Stalin was sure they were coming to arrest and execute him. He was shaking and completely powerless. But they were just coming to affirm his power.

The Arab Spring came about because people stopped following orders.

When Nixon was on his way out, the military decided to not follow his orders (so I've read).

The US will end when people just decide Constitution Shmonstitution.

Gun control is neither here nor there for me personally, but what greatly concerns me is if the Bill of Rights is ignored wrt the 2nd Amendment, then what about the rest of the Bill of Rights? Is that next?

Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by brobdingnagians on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:05PM (#27148073)
This reminds me of the tension between the Confucians and the Legalists in ancient Chinese Philosophy; as well as Étienne de La Boétie with his [1] Discourse on Voluntary Servitude.

The Legalists believed that if you had good laws then the rest would take care of itself. They "advocated government by a system of laws that rigidly prescribed punishments and rewards for specific behaviours. They stressed the direction of all human activity toward the goal of increasing the power of the ruler and the state."[2]

But the Confucians, particularly Mencius, pointed out that good men would create the good laws; while bad men would corrupt good laws. The laws were important for the ordering of society but insufficient. i.e. : "The sage-kings of antiquity are a model, but one cannot simply adopt their customs and institutions and expect to govern effectively (4A1). Instead, one must emulate the sage-kings both in terms of outer structures (good laws, wise policies, correct rituals) and in terms of inner motivations (placing ren and yi first). Like Confucius, Mencius places an enormous amount of confidence in the capacity of the ordinary person to respond to an extraordinary ruler, so as to put the world in order." [3]

To borrow from the Confucians; the Constitution is a product of good men and good laws to help protect goodness and order in society, but without good men to continue to have a living embodiment of the principles, it is still just a law that can be corrupted or ignored.

A beautiful quote from Etienne that you reminded me of is this, where he advocates to simply stop supporting tyrants: "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."

Tyrants only have power because people choose to follow.

[1] https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Discourse_on_Voluntary_Servit...

[2] https://www.britannica.com/topic/Legalism#:~:text=The%20Lega....

[3] https://iep.utm.edu/mencius/

Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by rootusrootus on Thursday May 13, 2021 @04:59PM (#27147386)
> It is powerless if people ignore it.

Indeed we just had a bit of a lesson in the recent past which showed exactly how dependent our country is (and probably most other countries as well) on shared values and tradition. The Constitution isn't all-powerful as a piece of paper, its real power is as an idea.

Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by Frost1x on Thursday May 13, 2021 @05:13PM (#27147548)
The real power is consensus in an idea. Hopefully that idea is good but ultimately, you need critical mass to accept an idea or reject it.

If people in the US really want to grab back power to the citizens of this country it can be done (peacefully even). All it really takes is a large enough consensus of voters to upend all the garbage we're being subjected to. The issue is that the consensus is more difficult to reach due to the scale of the US voter population combined with tactics like gerrymandering and overall difficulty of orchestrating movements to support ideals most people seem to support (which isn't oppressing a minority unless we classify power and wealth hungry individuals as a protected minority which we currently seem to do).

Reaching consensus amongst citizens is far far more difficult these days, giving an edge to those already sitting in positions of concentrated power with fewer players, lending itself more likely to reach a consensus. It doesn't help that those in power actively try and divide the general voter population and set us against one another making it even more difficult to reach a consensus.

Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by concordDance on Friday May 14, 2021 @04:09AM (#27151931)
I think it's more a coordination problem than a consensus problem. Ditching first past the post for approval voting or somesuch would likely solve a lot of issues.
Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by billytetrud on Friday May 14, 2021 @03:35PM (#27158792)
The problem with the constitution is that it provides few good legal mechanisms to enforce the provisions of the constitution. It doesn't incentivize government officers and representatives to follow the constitution. If there were clear consequences for doing things or supporting things that violate the constitution, and if there were clear procedures for indictment with a broad ability for those procedures to be started, we would be in a far beter position to protect the constitution. As it stands, lawmakers can just create unconstitutional laws that are in place for years or even decades until someone brings it all the way to the supreme court. And once they do, the lawmakers that created those laws aren't held responsible at all - no consequences for them. That must change if we want to protect the constitution.
Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by RhodoGSA on Sunday May 16, 2021 @04:13AM (#27172069)
Being 'Held responsible' for laws you created is a very scary thing. Public opinion and overall morality historically is a fickle thing.
Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by billytetrud on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:39AM (#27172702)
It sounds like you're implying that "public opinion" is how culpability would be determined. That isn't how the court system works.
Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by tick_tock_tick on Thursday May 13, 2021 @05:48PM (#27147919)
The 2nd Amendment is always a great point in these kind of debates if any other right had half as many restrictions on it people would be on the streets. Requiring an ID to vote is viewed as completely unacceptable by many but the very same people think it's perfectly reasonable to require it for other rights.
Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by anaerobicover on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:43PM (#27148425)
The right of voting is more essential, however, it is the sine qua non of all the others. If we fall down to the point where guns are required to indeed defend the rights, they functionally are not existing any more.
Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by nnvvhh on Monday May 17, 2021 @09:02AM (#27182917)
Although to distinguish the 2nd Amendment, its the language specifically mentions firearm ownership in connection with a "well regulated militia." There are disagreements about the effect of that part of the text, but it's worth mentioning.
Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by einpoklum on Friday May 14, 2021 @05:34AM (#27152448)
On the contrary. Many other key rights in the US are curtailed and restricted - like security against unreasonable search and seizure, the subject of this story - while the right to bear arms has been expanded massively in recent decades beyond the context of allowing for a well-regulated militia.

Also, people _have_ been in the streets in the US last year, a lot...

Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by tick_tock_tick on Friday May 14, 2021 @03:47PM (#27158923)
> A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

> the right of the people to keep and bear Arms

I don't understand how you could read that and interpret it as a right for anything other than the people?

Re:Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator... by einpoklum on Friday May 14, 2021 @05:41PM (#27160015)
I'm not interpreting it as anything, it was the US supreme court.