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Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @12:35PM (#27120218)
Very long stream of very successful business decisions.
Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @01:12PM (#27120647)
So what you're saying is that given the exact set of capital, connections, knowledge and market conditions that Musk initially had you wouldn't be able to make business decisions like he did because you're not intelligent enough?
Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by filoleg on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @02:12PM (#27121452)
Cannot answer for the parent commenter, but I know I wouldn't be able to make decisions like he did.

Just for one specific example: even if I was in his exact situation back then, I wouldn't mortgage out my house, ask friends and family for loans, cash out all of my savings, and then dump it all into my failing green energy startup during its "make it or break it moment". But he did, and none of what Tesla/SpaceX are presently would have been possible if he didn't make that decision.

And that's just one extreme thing that he did that I know for a fact I wouldn't have been able to do, even with the resources and everything else he had.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:43AM (#27127024)
All you talk about in your example is risk-taking, which is orthogonal to intelligence and is heavily influenced by one's economic situation anyway.
Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @01:46PM (#27121111)
I doubt it. It takes intelligence to make the best of those resources to create a success.

What's so unlikely to you about the idea that he's relatively intelligent and that's played a part in his success?

People want to pretend it's all luck and connections. I don't think it is, and I think people pretend that to make themselves feel like they could have done it if only they had the same resources.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:39AM (#27126996)
> What's so unlikely to you about the idea that he's relatively intelligent and that's played a part in his success?

Nothing, I haven't even questioned his intelligence or said anything about him at all.

I just don't have a slightest clue in how to assess his intelligence and compare it to mine based on what I know about him, which makes me wonder what's making it so obvious to you. Especially when talking about things so blurry as "business decisions", since there are so many outside factors at play in any business that one's intelligence is never a single thing that determines business success.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:12AM (#27128294)
> makes me wonder what's making it so obvious to you

Occam’s Razor. Maybe it’s possible it’s all sheer luck? But most likely - he’s a shrewd and intelligent business man.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by gremlinsinc on Thursday May 13, 2021 @01:21AM (#27138697)
Would you characterize Donald Trump as smarter than yourself? I mean, he made it all the way to President of the United States, have you ever been President? Hell, Einstein never was President, nor was he ever a Billionaire...

Trump was smarter than Einstein apparently. (Well, Einstein was German, bad example...

They never made it to president, or billionaire status though I don't think... It could be said Trump was more "successful"...

Does success === intelligence? God, I hope not or we're doomed as a species.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:19AM (#27140507)
I think you're making a silly argument and you already know it. Einstein and Trump weren't working in the same fields so you can't compare their achievements.

Is Donald Trump smart? Well I think it's a non-partisan fact that he outsmarted the entire US political establishment in 2016. You decide how smart that is for yourself.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @07:58AM (#27141099)
> You decide how smart that is for yourself.

His campaign has been purposely based on lies and hate, which to me seems like an exact opposite of "smart" even if successful.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Thursday May 13, 2021 @08:13AM (#27141215)
I think you're confusing 'smart' with 'moral'.

An immoral person can be smart. And in fact it's a common and dangerous mistake to assume someone's stupid because you think they're immoral.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Thursday May 13, 2021 @02:27PM (#27145513)
I don't. I believe that such immoral strategies are in fact easier to pull off than legitimate ones, that's why I called it "exact opposite of smart". It seems to me that it's you who's confusing "smart" with "successful".
Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Thursday May 13, 2021 @06:51PM (#27148488)
What could be more smart than doing the thing that makes you successful?

Are you arguing it would have been smarter to do something that was unsuccessful?

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Friday May 14, 2021 @01:21AM (#27151002)
Absolutely. Fouling and breaking the rules does not make you a better football player just because the referee did not notice. You won, but you're not smart, you're a cheater. Playing by the rules requires more effort - you need to be smarter to win.

I find it really weird that you even ask.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Friday May 14, 2021 @05:30AM (#27152428)
> Fouling and breaking the rules does not make you a better football player just because the referee did not notice. You won, but you're not smart, you're a cheater. Playing by the rules requires more effort - you need to be smarter to win.

A smart person dutifully operates as best they can within the rules.

But a smarter person realises that actually the rules aren't what everyone thought they were in the first place.

There's lots of examples in history.

Navies originally thought that submarine warfare was unfair somehow or against some unwritten gentlemanly rule. The less smart thing to do would be to take that rule and not use submarines. The smarter thing to do would be to say 'don't care' and build submarines anyway.

Football isn't a good example because you're volunteering to play by the rules in the first place.

Operating inside someone else's artificial rules is not smart.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:06AM (#27153820)
So, basically your point is that saying "don't care" about "unwritten gentlemanly rules" is an indicator of one's intelligence.

I'm pretty sure that it certainly is an indicator of several personality traits, but it doesn't tell you anything about being "smart".

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Friday May 14, 2021 @10:58AM (#27154985)
If everyone is just mistakenly assuming that these rules are important or were ever really rules at all... and you're the sole person to realise that actually these were never rules all along and you don't need to follow them... then yeah I think that's a really smart insight to make.

Challenging assumptions, thinking outside of constraints, re-assessing the foundations of the way we do things, redefining what is possible... smart.

Galileo had to break the 'rules' to model the solar system. Do you think he would have been smarter if he'd followed the current thinking instead?

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Saturday May 15, 2021 @03:39AM (#27163255)
Thanks, I understand now. There is a grocery store near me which has a spot that seems poorly covered by security cameras. So far I thought that I shouldn't just grab things from there into my pockets and leave without paying, but I see now that it wasn't smart - I don't need to follow these rules.

BTW. Did you even notice that you just compared Trump's campaign to Galileo's work?

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Sunday May 16, 2021 @06:35PM (#27177688)
> Thanks, I understand now.

I don't think you do. You've just made a moral point. But we're talking about how smart people are, not how moral they are.

It could be very smart to find a way to steal something. That doesn't make it moral to do so.

> BTW. Did you even notice that you just compared Trump's campaign to Galileo's work?

But again, that's moral not smart.

See if you can rephrase your point without any reference to morals, and I think you'll see where you're confused.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:54PM (#27189376)
I haven't even referenced morality at all. I just applied your own definition of "smart", no more no less.

Just taking things because nobody's looking is not "smart" regardless of its morality, of course. Even if you were doing it to steal from the rich and feed the poor, there's nothing smart in it, even when it's successful. You don't need exceptional intelligence to do that. Just like you don't need exceptional intelligence to build your political capital on xenophobia. That's just dumb brute force, not smartness. Everyone knows you can do that if you're willing to get dirty enough, it worked many times in the past already. What could be smart is to successfully build that same capital without resorting to such lazy and harmful tactics, as that would require much more wit to pull off.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @09:51AM (#27194513)
> You don't need exceptional intelligence to do that.

You need the intelligence to see which rules really impact you and which don't. That requires insight.

> What could be smart is to successfully build that same capital without resorting to such lazy and harmful tactics

Often being 'lazy' is the smart thing to do. Why do extra work that you don't need to do?

What's why I think you're confusing it with morality. You're saying it's better to do it without being lazy... but why? If being lazy gets you the same or better result, then surely it's the smart thing to do?

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:57AM (#27195476)
> Why do extra work that you don't need to do?

Because of the consequences.

Tesla had used customer-grade components for control & entertainment systems in their cars. Nobody else did that, what a smart thing to do! They recognized that there's a rule to break to cut costs!

...unfortunately, the customer-grade touchscreen panels in their cars were breaking so often for exactly the reasons why you don't use them in cars and go for more expensive and harder to obtain industrial-grade components instead that they were fined and forced to recall whole production runs.

Now, if you actually did figure out a thing that nobody did before in order to put less work or cut costs and achieve the same or better results - you'd be indeed smart. Neither Trump's campaign nor Tesla's use of customer-grade electronics were examples of that. They just did something that others did not because of other factors than their intelligence.

Some rules are there for a reason and breaking them does not make you smart.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by chrisseaton on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:10PM (#27197767)
> Because of the consequences.

The smart thing was to realise that in fact there were no consequences to breaking some rules.

> Some rules are there for a reason

And others are not. Telling the difference requires you to be... smart.

Re:Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotyp... by seba_dos1 on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @04:49PM (#27200881)
> Telling the difference requires you to be... smart.

...which is exactly my point of why your examples of "smart" fall short ;)