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Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:24AM (#27083855)
I've never seen a good solution for this.

If the taxes get locked in, then you get the "2 neighbors with near identical houses paying totally different amounts in taxes" problem.

If the taxes are not locked in, then you get the retired lifelong home-owner (or renter) on a fixed income, unable to afford the increasing taxes (or rents).

Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by seryoiupfurds on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:38AM (#27083928)
In other jurisdictions the solution is to allow the retired homeowner to defer property taxes, to be paid out of the eventual proceeds of a sale.
Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by sagarm on Saturday May 08, 2021 @03:19AM (#27084745)
California already has a means-tested property tax postponement program: https://sco.ca.gov/ardtax_prop_tax_postponement.html

We should expand it and repeal income taxes and prop 13.

Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by defterGoose on Saturday May 08, 2021 @03:49AM (#27084903)
A sane, rational solution to a huge, massive problem? We wouldn't want any of those screwing up our politics, would we? /s

But really, Prop 13 is among the most ham-fisted damaging legislation you could possibly point to...

Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by jjav on Sunday May 09, 2021 @05:56AM (#27094667)
It's not legislation, it's a proposition.
Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by dragonwriter on Sunday May 09, 2021 @06:15AM (#27094773)
Propositions are legislation; specifically, they are one of:

(1) initiatives which are exercises of legislative power reserved by the people to adopt a law initiated by citizen petition,

(2) referenda which are exercises of legislative power reserved by the people to approve or reject measures passed by the legislature, either with the assent of or over the veto of the governor.

(3) legislation referred to the people by the legislature (often because it would impact a previously passed initiative statute in a manner which the legislature has not been delegated the power to do without popular assent.)

Prop 13 of 1978 (proposition numbers get reused, so “Prop 13” alone is technically, though only rarely practically, ambiguous—though confusion from that ambiguity has been suggested to have helped the defeat of Prop 13/2020, which was on the ballot with two measures that would have modified Prop 13/1978, Prop 15/2020 [which failed] and Prop 19/2020 [which passed]), specifically is an initiative constitutional amendment.

Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by Gibbon1 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:47AM (#27083965)
I've also heard people mention places where they freeze property taxes for retired people.
Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by colordrops on Saturday May 08, 2021 @03:53AM (#27084923)
A good solution would be to lower property taxes for everyone to something manageable, and increase taxes elsewhere, especially around loopholes for the wealthy.
Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by AdrianB1 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @05:27AM (#27085393)
That is easy, eliminate property taxes. That property was bought with money that was already taxed. If you provide services, ask them to pay for the actual services provided, not for a generic tax. Common services like police can be split to the number of residents.
Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday May 08, 2021 @09:42AM (#27087038)
This "the money was already taxed" line is so much BS. There's not some law handed from God that says "Thy shall only levy taxes on a single dollar once in its entire existence". There isn't even one that says "Thou shalt not levy a tax on this meagre dollar more than once as long as it is held by this particular individual".

Taxes are a matter of choice - a (democratic, even vaguely) society makes a choice to spend a certain amount of money, and as a reflection of that, they levy taxes on a variety of things to raise something roughly equal to that amount of money. These taxes will affect different people differently, and they will affect different kinds of income and different kinds of wealth differently. Some taxes are based on what a person is paid for their labor. Some taxes are based on a person's ownership of something valuable. Some taxes are based on what a person spends. What matters is who pays what and why, not whether "the money was already taxed".

But you're right that we have a choice in whether or not we levy a tax on the ownership of land/buildings. Personally, I'm more a Georgeist in such things, and I think that taxing the ownership of land is an excellent idea, much better than taxing income or spending. But I don't feel that Georgism itself answers the question of how to determine how much tax a person would/should pay for owning a particular piece of land.

Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by AdrianB1 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @01:05PM (#27088904)
Would you go to Mars to ask the people moving there to pay tax on the land they will own? Where is the boundary of what you think you can "democratically" force your taxation views on? I consider zero taxation as living people alone to live their lives, not as forcing them to do something that I think it's good for society.
Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday May 08, 2021 @01:15PM (#27088983)
The people on Mars will likely decide to levy their own taxes to cover the costs of the things that they decide to collectively fund. Just like Americans did after the declaration of independence from England.

I suspect you don't believe that there can be society-wide collective goals, and I just don't have any time for that nonsense. I spent too much of the 90s on Usenet arguing with people who thought that, and it just isn't worth my time anymore.

Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by zrobotics on Saturday May 08, 2021 @11:59AM (#27088296)
The reason you are being downvoted is that you are proposing an extremely regressive tax. For example, splitting police costs among the residents evenly means that everyone, regardless of income, has the same tax burden.

The reason property taxes are based on value is that it acts to tax wealthier people at a higher rate than poorer people. Plus, just because the money that purchased the land was taxed means nothing to the local community. Sure, the federal & state governments have already taxed that income, but that means nothing to the local community, who has to pay for schools and EMS every year. And these services act to make the property more valuable, so why shouldn't the residents of the community pay for them?

Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by AdrianB1 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @12:55PM (#27088807)
I don't mind people having different opinions, I am a bit sad to see some are not honest.

1. There are places in the civilized world without property taxes.

2. I am not proposing a regressive tax system, I am proposing a tax system based on actual consumption and frugal mindset. People are always equal until they are not - one man one vote is good, but one man one dollar tax is bad, 'cause some men cannot afford to pay for the services they get, but they have equal right to vote. That is hypocrisy. In some circumstances I am fine with people living on state care or UBI, but they should completely give up their right to vote as they are incapable of having a solid life for themselves, so they are incapable of deciding for community.

3. When you pay per service, you are a lot more careful with what you ask for and what you get for than when you pay a sum for a bucket of "something". A colleague that lived somewhere in a small town in Ohio told me they did not have a police force in their community by choice: the cost-benefit ratio was not good. A different colleague told me she was paying about half of her salary (low level manager in a big company) as property tax for the small farm her family had for generations, somewhere in West Virginia. In my part of the world most of the tax money are wasted on things that are not necessarily the biggest priority for the community, but the politicians are rarely competent and most people don't mind the waste, while others like me do. This is why I am looking at a zero tax and pay per service to eliminate waste.

Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday May 08, 2021 @01:19PM (#27089021)
>I am not proposing a regressive tax system,

In a progressive tax system, the burden of taxes is related to the marginal utility of money. That is, an extra $1000 for a person who earns $15k a year has enormous utility, whereas an extra $1000 for a person who earns $150k a year is of much less utility (and this trends to zero utility as base-line income rises).

Consequently, when you collect $1000 in taxes from a person who earns $15k, you have a dramatic impact on their life. When you collect $1000 in taxes from a person who earns $500k a year, it has very littl eimpact on their life.

This notion of "progressivity" in taxes has been at the heart of most taxation in most western nations, including the USA, for centuries.

Your suggestion does not follow this, and is thus called "regressive" - people are taxed without attention to the marginal utility of money.

Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by AdrianB1 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @02:27PM (#27089570)
No, I am not doing the philosophy of taxation, I am suggesting eliminating taxation as a concept; you pay per service consumed. Even buying a sandwich is regressive, but I haven't seen proposals to make the price of sandwiches progressive.
Re:California population declines for first time in more tha... by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday May 08, 2021 @02:39PM (#27089662)
That's because taxation is connected to the notion of collective decision making. Buying a sandwich is not.

And BTW, there are some cafes/restaurants (not many, but a few) that do offer progressive pricing.