> IMO, cryptocurrency seems like a religion.

That implies a sincerity in their beliefs.

While it's difficult to figure out what people's true motivations are, the promotion of new cryptocurrencies, the "get in early" rhetoric, leads me to believe most cryptocurrencies are little more than pyramid schemes. The ability to mint/mine/farm currency without paying in directly doesn't really negate that since it is intended to become more difficult as time progresses. The actual value comes from speculative investments from a growing number of people.

The spike in Dogecoin led to people talking about regretting not getting in on it. Feeling like they missed out on their chance. The motivations are clear. They wanted easy money. If it was about having a decentralized financial system then it wouldn't matter that they didn't get in early.

But it's an objective fact that you don't need to open an account with a financial institution to start using Bitcoin. That was always the case. Unlike religion, it actually delivers.

How do you buy bitcoins without it touching some financial institution at some point? You can buy bitcoin with cash, yes, but if it has to go through a financial institution or other regulated entity at any point then it is not delivering on any promise of independence from those institutions.

Why do you need to "buy" Bitcoin? Do some work for someone, sell them some produce you grew or something you made, have them pay you in BTC. Go to a vendor who also is happy to take Bitcoin, buy stuff you need in turn.

Yes, I know it's not happening much. Bitcoin has failed (so far) as a payment/exchange system, and that's cause for sadness to me, but also a good way to look at the history and ask the questions about why it has failed and how to go about creating a better "King-proof Money".

You're not going further in the chain: The person you work for has to buy bitcoins then. Or the next link in backwards has to. At some point, people will need to convert current assets into bitcoin. You're arguing from a point of view that requires bitcoin to already be an established currency. I'm saying that there is no practical way to get to that point without that sanction of governments to use traditional financial institutions along the way.

Further, even if you got there, governments could simply ban bitcoin. It then becomes extremely hard to use as a common medium of exchange because literally no legal business could accept it without risking the business and their life outside of prison.

It would also render useless the scenario of fleeing a despot country with hard currency assets intact because wherever your destination, those assets are still illegal to use.

All of this means that, at any point, governments could reduce bitcoin to-- at best-- another side of shadow banking, like how drugs can be a medium of exchange in the criminal world. That does not allow room for common usage by the masses.

Bitcoin & other crypto exist because nation states allow them to exist.

You don't need to open an account to trade pogs either.

Besides, it would be naive to take pog trading advice from boosters who are holding a hundred million Alf pogs.

This reads like a person who has never used cryptocurrency or defi in any manner whatsoever. If I want to right now, I can get a multimillion dollar loan, no questions asked, against most any crypto I own for an interest rate lower than credit cards or scammy payday loans will charge. I can be a market maker for trades without being an institution and with no barrier to entry, I can liquidated overleveraged loans, I can trade derivatives otherwise not allowed to me by my country, and I mint and trade synthetic assets, the list goes on and on.

You're the one who sounds like they are subscribing to a religion and haven't actually even attempted to understand what financial freedoms are suddenly afforded to you when you use cryptocurrency.

There’s definitely some reasons for real value in defi but cheap loans is not one of them. With millions in collateral you can get ~1% APR from several places right now. That’s way lower than any crypto loan I know of. One way is to sign up for an IBKR account from several countries, and wire them assets, completely without human interaction.

I wasn't aware of this. What kind of collateralization ratio is required and what sort of assets are needed for this? Also signing up for an account from many countries sounds irritating and possibly illegal

As the sibling comment says, I mean you can access them from several countries.

Collateral requirements vary by asset and account country according to national law. Generally it’s 50% LTV on equity collateral but leverage can be higher depending on the case.

I paid for a house with their margin to avoid triggering gains on long term positions, while waiting for some locked up options to liquidate.

I think they mean ibkr is available in several countries

Is this a constructive argument?

Financial freedom is an interesting topic, and one that I don’t have much expertise in.

What is cryptocurrency freeing you from? You listed several opportunities that cryptocurrency could provide you, but I don’t exactly see the correlation with financial freedom.

What is freedom if not the ability to take advantage of opportunities?

Again, the correlation is obvious to anyone who actually uses this stuff. If I want to trade on margin on Fidelity, I need to sign some forms, go through a lengthy application process which may or may not actually be accepted to finally be able to trade with high interest rates and non-transparent margin requirements (my fidelity margin requirements change out from under me nearly every single day) routed through rent seeking, too-big-to-fail hedge funds and dark pools with T+2 order execution and restrictions on when during the day I can trade (only during day trading hours). Oh and don't accidentally trip up a "good faith" violation and have your account suspended from margin trading for a month even though you've done nothing wrong, and their antiquated systems simply aren't able to account for the fact that you weren't, in fact, trading money you didn't have.

Just let me do what I want with my money, it's pretty simple. Sure maybe there are negative externalities that come with that, but freedom isn't free.

> "What is freedom if not the ability to take advantage of opportunities?"

We probably have differing perspectives of what freedom means. Financial freedom to me means dedicating my time to doing things that enrich my lived experience.

> "Again, the correlation is obvious to anyone who actually uses this stuff"

I don't know if it is your intention, but I find that to be dismissive and unnecessary. I would appreciate the opportunity to discuss opposing viewpoints with civility.

> If I want to right now, I can get a multimillion dollar loan, no questions asked, against most any crypto I own for an interest rate lower than credit cards or scammy payday loans will charge

Giving people loans with "no questions asked" has lead to significant amount of problems in the past.

I see your point but they are collateralized. Let's put it this way, my friend just bought his house and spent 2 weeks with mortgage agents and brokers. Meanwhile I deposit some ETH-USDC LP into maker and in 2 minutes get a no questions asked loan at 3.5%. Sure it's lower leverage when compared to most mortgages but I think my point still stands.

What happens when the price of BTC/ETH falls by 50%? I don't see how would lending at 3.5% (unless it's very short term) would make sense considering the risk.

And what happens if you can't pay back this loan? And what happens if thousands or even millions of people can't pay back their loans?

The current systems may not be perfect, but they do exist for a reason. Chesterton's Fence and all.

One of the best comments in the thread, actually describing the utility of crypto and the power of DeFi, and you're getting downvoted to oblivion.

Could be the tone, when removed it does make a good argument.

Strange because I intentionally matched the tone of the comment I replied to. Comparing cryptocurrency to religion is incredibly ignorant at best, and trolling or FUDing at worst.

Its close (oh and I’m absolutely on your side here). It’s not a religion (this would require it be not-math and not-physics), but it is a very virulent meme, like religion. It might even be the greatest meme - that is, energy based PoW 21 million coin sha256^2/ripemd/ecdsa with 10 min blocks just as our savior Satoshi commanded. As another commenter said, it actually delivers unlike religion.