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Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by LargeWu on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:13PM (#26986793)
I think a more accurate way of framing it is "Menthols have been targeted specifically to black people, and also, they're even more harmful than regular cigarettes". It's definitely not "let's take this away because black people like it".
Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by chmod600 on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:19PM (#26986877)
When paternalistic policies are directed at particular demographics, it is kinda disturbing. I mean, sure, there's a reason. But there always is, and it makes me wonder if a line is being crossed here that will set a bad precedent.
Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by LargeWu on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:29PM (#26987026)
The entire "paternalistic" argument rests on the premise that the choice to smoke, or not, is for most people purely rational, and totally discounts the predatory nature of tobacco companies and the addiction that comes with it. Menthols are targeted at blacks, and especially black children, since the menthol flavoring makes them more pleasant to smoke. Of the 20 million American menthol smokers, 17 million of those are black. That's not by accident, it's intentional.
Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by int_19h on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:50PM (#26987247)
The alternative is to assume that most people aren't rational, except for those pushing for such laws.

If one subscribes to that, why even bother with democracy at all?

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by jimmygrapes on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:24PM (#26988101)
Could you expand more on how menthol cigarettes are targeted towards blacks? I have lived most of my life in "black culture" and anecdotally the targeting comes from the idea of "we smoke menthol" perpetuating culturally and generationally, not through external targeting or advertising. Maybe it was, once, and it continues as a result of that initial seed? I don't know, but I do know it is not a traditionally target ad campaign or similar. For the record, I also smoke menthols, partially because of that cultural influence.
Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by atlasunshrugged on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:40PM (#26987143)
Does the entire paternalistic argument really rest on that? What if you believe humans are rarely entirely rational and it's a spectrum (e.g. If I was addicted to heroin but trying to quit I'd probably be less rational when I really wanted a fix than if I was a pack a day smoker doing the same)?
Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by oh_sigh on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:34PM (#26987083)
There are only 42 million black people in the US. Are you really saying that 40% of black Americans smoke menthols specifically? And presumably some percentage smoke something without menthol? That doesn't seem right.
Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by LeifCarrotson on Thursday April 29, 2021 @06:06PM (#26987419)
You do have to be careful with your groupings. I wonder if this isn't a confusion between the number of cigarettes smoked by a particular population and the number of people from each population who smoke, or something like that.

I'm not sure where the number '20 million menthol users' keeps coming from, perhaps somewhere in the data behind [1]? Regardless, [2] and [3] suggest that somewhere around 20% of the African American population smokes tobacco in some form. Among those 20% of black Americans who smoke about 85% use menthols.

[1] https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/cbhsq-report...

[2] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/in...

[3] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/in...

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by pradn on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:25PM (#26986969)
The original harm was caused by tobacco corps targeting a particular demographic. Rectifying this wrong requires targeting that demographic, but it's not unsettling. Moreover, they have banned all the other flavors, so might as well finish the job with this one.
Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by __blockcipher__ on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:21PM (#26986904)
We’re about a couple months away from being told that opposing mandatory vaccination is racist because more black people die from COVID-19.

(I mean that seriously not as a joke...although there is some natural humor in it as well)

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by sadgrip on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:24PM (#26986954)
Sorry but where is the harm reduction for everyone else's race? Doesn't seem like it's a priority since the people in powerful also enjoy those vices. It's a bit coincidental that the races with less power also have the vices that they need to be protected by. My family is Mexican and they love tequila. I can guarantee you that if it was banned they'd all drink less alcohol and would be much less of a burden on our healthcare system. Somehow I'm yet to see a suggested ban of flavored Smirnoffs because it's turning our white college students into alcoholics.
Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by adamdusty on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:36PM (#26987107)
I'm not going to argue for or against the ban, but tobacco companies specifically targeted african-americans to use them and the civil rights movement to defend industry policy.

Mexicans like tequila because it's made from agave which is easy to grow in the desert. Mexicans have loved tequila since before europeans even landed in mexico.

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by ketzo on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:17PM (#26986847)
That’s actually a solid point. There’s extra responsibility to prevent harm to specific groups when the harm has been targeted at them specifically.

And yeah, I know that’s not actually the message. But as I read it, “banning menthols because they disproportionately harm underrepresented groups” is not so semantically different from the other version.

I mostly think it’s an area where we should all have our eyes peeled, basically. Like I said, I’m fully in agreement with this decision. Just hits my “maybe weird?” radar.

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by throwawayboise on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:25PM (#26986966)
Black people couldn't possibly make their own decisions on whether they want to smoke, or what flavor of cigarettes they prefer. They need the white people running the FDA to protect them.
Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by __blockcipher__ on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:19PM (#26986870)
How are menthol cigarettes more harmful than regular ones? The menthol just makes it easier to smoke more. Is that the crux of your argument?

I find the “company X is targeting [arbitrary subcategory]” argument to be totally asinine btw. Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines?

Lastly there is nothing more patronizing than telling a black person that you’re preventing them from buying menthol cigarettes for their own good.

Man I hate the whole “safety culture” crowd. I find it such an insufferable ideology. But then again I’m explicitly not a collectivist so that’s par for the course.

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by garciasn on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:26PM (#26986975)
https://jag.journalagent.com/tkd/pdfs/TKDA_37_4_234_240.pdf

From the paper:

Its cooling effect may contribute to the intensity of smoking (deeper inhalation and/or more prolonged breath holding) resulting in greater exposure to tobacco smoke toxins. The effect of menthol through increasing the permeability of cell membranes results in a greater absorption of smoked toxins [2,3] Ahijevych and Garrett[2] reported higher cotinine levels in mentholated cigarettes compared to nonmentholated cigarettes, suggesting greater nicotine absorption per cigarette. Clarke et al.[3] found that mentholated cigarette smoking was associated with higher serum cotinine and carbon monoxide levels per cigarette.

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by __blockcipher__ on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:34PM (#26987081)
Thanks for the citation.

I should mention I oppose these bans regardless of whether menthol really is or isn’t dangerous, but interesting to know it increases cellular permeability. And seems like a good bit of increased heart/cardiac effects.

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by Jiocus on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:36PM (#26987106)
Menthol enhances nicotine delivery by altering nicotine metabolism. Menthol also interact with nicotine nACh receptors in the brain in various ways[1].

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720998/

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by rad_gruchalski on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:31PM (#26987052)
> How are menthol cigarettes more harmful than regular ones? The menthol just makes it easier to smoke more. Is that the crux of your argument?

It gives more pleasure so it hooks you on more. So yes, it’s more harmful, no? When I was smoking cigarettes back in the day, my fav was West Ice. They tasted really good and didn’t have bad aftertaste. It was easier to smoke more and smoke one only for the menthol taste.

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by throwawayboise on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:23PM (#26986943)
> Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines?

LOL are they really doing that? That's funny considering that obesity and diabetes are both risk factors for poor COVID-19 outcomes.

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by seriousquestion on Thursday April 29, 2021 @07:02PM (#26987918)
Yes, and blue checks on Twitter thought it was great. Meanwhile, 78% of the people hospitalized for Covid-19 are overweight or obese; https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughl...
Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by MiddleEndian on Friday April 30, 2021 @12:32AM (#26989842)
>78% of the people hospitalized for Covid-19 are overweight or obese

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm

>Percent of adults aged 20 and over with overweight, including obesity: 73.6% (2017-2018)

Since COVID targets older people more often, this may match the adult population within these groups, as the population becomes more overweight each year and people get heavier and slightly shorter as they age.

Re:FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars by __blockcipher__ on Thursday April 29, 2021 @05:30PM (#26987043)
Welcome to the new world ;)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/free-food-vaccin...

You actually get a donut per day! The foundation of a healthy diet.