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Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by karaterobot on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:18PM (#26909294)
If I had to name an economic system where ordinary people were made to wait for a long time due to pointless and arbitrary decisions made by a bureaucracy that doesn't care about them, capitalism would not be the first thing that came to mind.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by dredmorbius on Friday April 23, 2021 @04:29PM (#26918838)
The system you appear to prefer intersects with the system you appear to criticise, and extracts profits from it whilst perpetuating human abuses.

That seems to indicate a problem with the system you appear to prefer.

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Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by AnimalMuppet on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:10PM (#26908790)
We're downvoting you, not because it "hits too close to home", but because we think you're full of baloney. Don't take the downvotes as confirmation that you're right, because they're not.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by lame-robot-hoax on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:18PM (#26908844)
Trade isn’t zero sum.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by aidenn0 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:25PM (#26908895)
The wealthy exploiting the poor predates capitalism by 10s of thousands of years.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by dredmorbius on Friday April 23, 2021 @04:24PM (#26918789)
In which case one might observe that capitalism merely perpetuates that injustice.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by wildrhythms on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:38PM (#26908985)
And nothing has changed.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by Godel_unicode on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:04PM (#26909193)
Your employer has the legal right to tell you whether (and who) you can marry? To tell you where you're allowed to live? Come on. It can simultaneously be true that some people in our society have it bad and also that they have it better than they would have in the middle ages.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by thaumasiotes on Thursday April 22, 2021 @09:03PM (#26909947)
> The wealthy exploiting the poor predates capitalism by 10s of thousands of years.

I feel like in order to make this claim, you'd need a pretty detailed definition of what "capitalism" is.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by glenmorangie_14 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @10:29PM (#26910414)
You should check out the book "Debt: The first 5000 years" by Graeber. It covers this topic in depth.

My summary won't do it justice, but basically our society has a myth that society has always been capitalistic, but there is some evidence that is not true. It's a pretty interesting take on some fundamental economic thoughts and theories, because the author is an anthropologist.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by lmm on Thursday April 22, 2021 @10:42PM (#26910486)
It's also littered with factual errors (I'm not an academic but even I spotted an outright falsehood), which makes one rather dubious of the overall thesis.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by aidenn0 on Friday April 23, 2021 @02:09PM (#26917459)
Not that Wikipedia is the definitive source of knowledge, but it indicates capitalism forming around the 16th century[1].

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by thaumasiotes on Friday April 23, 2021 @03:34PM (#26918315)
I mean, I think it's sufficient to quote the opening of the article verbatim:

> The history of capitalism is diverse. The concept of capitalism has many debated roots, but fully[quantify] fledged capitalism is generally thought by scholars[specify][weasel words] to have emerged in Northwestern Europe, especially in Great Britain and the Netherlands, in the 16th to 17th centuries.[citation needed] Over the following centuries, capital accumulated by a variety of methods, at a variety of scales, and became associated[by whom?] with much variation in the concentration of wealth and economic power. Capitalism gradually became the dominant economic system throughout the world.[1][2](subscription required)[need quotation to verify][3][need quotation to verify] Much[quantify] of the history of the past 500 years is concerned with the development of capitalism in its various forms.

> It is an ongoing debate within the fields of economics and sociology as to what the past, current and future stages of capitalism are.

This does not leave me filled with confidence that people know what they mean when they mention "capitalism".

The problem is that there are two broad paradigms of what "capitalism" should mean:

1. Whatever the United States does.

This is what most people seem to be talking about when they talk about "capitalism", but it leaves something to be desired on theoretical grounds. Many aspects of it are not particularly economic.

2. An economic system defined... somehow. Mostly by constrast with "communism", which -- unlike "capitalism" -- has a large body of theory attached.

This is what people want to claim they are talking about. It is more or less conceptually incoherent, being defined only as the absence of policies covered by the term "communism". But all of those negative policies are very old, historically.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by aidenn0 on Friday April 23, 2021 @04:24PM (#26918794)
Nothing you quote suggests that it is a popular opinion among historians that capitalism is an appropriate label for systems used in antiquity though. Marx may have coined the term capitalism to have a term to contrast communism, but it definitely has a large body of theory attached see e.g. Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations."

It is probably better to contrast capitalism with socialism though, and classical economics with communist theory. Not all capitalists ascribe to classical economics, just like not all socialists ascribe to communist theory.

Marx gave capitalism a name to talk about it as a step in the thrust of history, contrasting it with earlier feudalism systems, and to argue that it would inevitably lead to its own destruction while advocating that communism is the logical next step. It wasn't just "anything before communism" even for him.

Keynes, Hayek, and Smith all have a common thread on their belief in the market, despite the fact that they would in many cases advocate for very different policies.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by thaumasiotes on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:43PM (#26922081)
> Marx may have coined the term capitalism to have a term to contrast communism, but it definitely has a large body of theory attached see e.g. Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations."

Is anything about that theory specific to any time period? Does any part of it refer to a system of "capitalism"?

Marx, and those following Marx, wrote their works under the banner of "communism". Adam Smith did not write under any banner. He made observations.

> Marx gave capitalism a name to talk about it as a step in the thrust of history, contrasting it with earlier feudalism systems, and to argue that it would inevitably lead to its own destruction while advocating that communism is the logical next step. It wasn't just "anything before communism" even for him.

You're not getting what I'm saying. Marx gave capitalism a name, OK. Did he give it a definition? The whole problem I'm talking about here is that people use the word "capitalism" without having a meaning in mind for it to refer to.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by yerwhat01010 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:43PM (#26909018)
I'd also say that the relationship between the average 10th-centry peasant and his feudal lord strikes me as a lot less "exploitative" than the typical employee-employer relationship today.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by s_fischer on Friday April 23, 2021 @09:58AM (#26914834)
How is a two-way, 'at will', relationship more exploitative than one which comes with legal penalties for choosing to complete your job? (a job that you were born into, I might add)
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by dredmorbius on Friday April 23, 2021 @04:22PM (#26918775)
"At will" is vastly insufficient to generate an equality of power.

The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily: and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit, their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes, the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks, which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year, without employment.

-- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2H...

Under the feudal system, lords had at least a nominal obligation to see to the welfare of their charges. I'm not claiming the relationship was otherwise equal, but that sense of obligation is now all but wholly absent.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by LegitShady on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:01PM (#26909165)
...please explain your point using a logical argument, because on its face it's ridiculous and untrue.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by yerwhat01010 on Friday April 23, 2021 @03:22AM (#26911998)
Wait, I'm an idiot. I wrote "less exploitative" when I went to write more exploitative. You're right: to say that it's less exploitative would be absurd.

I need to write fewer posts when it's late at night...

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by LegitShady on Friday April 23, 2021 @01:43PM (#26917210)
no worries, I wasn't sure what you intended but it didn't make sense so I asked.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by jollybean on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:21PM (#26908861)
Countries mostly become rich by being highly socially organized, and having a high standard for individual contribution.

For example, 'gold' imported by ill-gotten means from some far off land actually provides 0 value in terms of material value creation. Of course 'oil' does, but remember the 'House of Saud' is kept in power by the US not with the promise of US access to 'cheap oil', rather, with the promise it will be sold at full value, on the open market - just not in some kind of strategic/complicated/backwater setup with the then Soviet Union or China. The US didn't 'go in and take all the oil', which they definitely had the power to do.

This exemplifies, in perhaps a crude, ham-fisted realpolitik manner the 'enforcement of trust' in systems I alluded to in my original comment: it's actually the US (and ultimately everyone's) interest to uphold fairly basic commercial and humanitarian standards in the long run.

And to be fair, these problems are to some extent a function of capitalism, because only 'very large' systems have the opportunity to plan on the generational scale, ergo, there's effectively no commercial enterprise for which the implementation of such standards really matters, that's generally the purview of governments.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by worldsayshi on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:16PM (#26909282)
This feels slightly more true than the comment you responded to. But I feel that important aspects are left out.

I don't feel like I can make much justice for those aspects but here's my two cents: Selling oil on the free market disproportionately benefits those that own the means to process and resell it further. Or rather, those that ultimately coordinate global oil logistics. The global fossil fuel market doesn't exactly seem like a "free" market. There are few players and they are powerful.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by unishark on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:51PM (#26910812)
> Selling oil on the free market disproportionately benefits those that own the means to process and resell it further.

What is the basis for this comparison? Compare the profit margins of a gas station (tiny) versus the profit margin of a company that needs to purchase fuel to operate a factory (could be anything). Or for that matter a company that needs products produced at one of those factories (the rest of us). The benefit is widespread and it's not at all obvious who benefits most, commodity or not.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by jollybean on Saturday April 24, 2021 @01:01PM (#26926418)
Those with exclusive access to the commodity make a lot of money. The Saudi Government, which is actually a 'family', are the richest 'family' on earth by leagues. That's there 'the profit is'.
Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by jollybean on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:27PM (#26909360)
The means to process and transport oil are commodity, there's very little surplus in it. It just requires a bit of investment, but not much.

Exclusive control of 'easy access to Oil' is overwhelmingly the power in that value chain.

The 'first order' issue is earlier in the process, it's that 'House of Saud' keeps most of the surplus for their family and furthermore use it to do some suppressive things.

The fossil fuel market it is very open, and market oriented. It has obvious geostrategic artifacts (notably the petrodollar, some politicians refusal to build pipelines, military support of interventions, OPEC), but it's generally open season. Nobody controls the flow of spice melange.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by thaumasiotes on Thursday April 22, 2021 @09:01PM (#26909937)
> The means to process and transport oil are commodity, there's very little surplus in it. It just requires a bit of investment, but not much.

> Exclusive control of 'easy access to Oil' is overwhelmingly the power in that value chain.

Singapore might disagree. But what do they know?

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by quickthrowman on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:53PM (#26909102)
People with more resources have been exploiting people with less resources since probably the domestication of animals and plants created sedentary living and the idea of money/credit, perhaps before that even. Not just under capitalism, mind you, but every form of economic system.

I believe resource inequality will exist until free or near-free energy sources are developed, and even then, you still need ever expanding amounts of land/space. I believe it’s a consequence of scarcity and human nature.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by rhengles on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:09AM (#26910894)
As Mark Twain said, "Buy land, they're not making it anymore". Nothing can make land "free". The planet's resources are vast but finite. If people continue reproducing with no limits they're reducing everyone's share of the pie. This is the actual reason why "the poor gets poorer", there's more of them but the resources stay the same.

This is the same logic that explain why building more roads does not reduce traffic congestion, because new demand is created to use the new roads and the traffic stays bad.

Re:Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after fou... by kingsuper20 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:05PM (#26909196)
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under socialism it's just the opposite.