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Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by PragmaticPulp on Thursday April 22, 2021 @12:35PM (#26904733)
> I think people here are underestimating the volume of cheating in school.

Not defending Protorio here, but I didn't really understand how rampant cheating was, either, until I became friends with someone who works at a University.

Growing up, my friends and I would never dream of cheating and would fear the consequences of getting caught, so the entire concept feels foreign. We also grew up in the era of in-person classes, before cellular phones were common.

Some of the cheating stories I hear from my friends in University are mind-blowing. Everything from (college) students thinking the proctor won't notice them using their cellular phone during tests, to people trying to hire test-takers who show up with fake IDs. They had to start giving proctors photos of each student because checking IDs wasn't enough any more.

The situation is much more complicated than it sounds. As soon as one person gets away with cheating, it becomes a cheating arms race as even the good students feel the need to cheat to keep up. If an entire institution becomes notorious for rampant cheating, the value of every graduate's degree goes down.

Obviously the Proctorio solution is terrible, which is why I expect we'll see Universities push to return to in-person classes sooner rather than later while keeping remote as a 2nd class option.

Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by kbenson on Thursday April 22, 2021 @12:50PM (#26904937)
We can't stress the importance of school and how it will affect the rest of their life, and then not expect them to do whatever it takes to make sure they do well there. For some, it might be a matter of making sure they have an excellent record, for others, it might a case of keeping them in the system at all if they didn't get there though merit, or feel like they can't keep up enough to stick around. I imagine the latter might by even more of an issue for large big name schools, of the type you often hear that one of the real reasons to go is the connections you make.
Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by PragmaticPulp on Thursday April 22, 2021 @01:04PM (#26905102)
> We can't stress the importance of school and how it will affect the rest of their life, and then not expect them to do whatever it takes to make sure they do well there.

That's basically what happened here: The school expected students to cheat and looked for solutions to address it.

I think it's very important that universities have very significant consequences when students are caught cheating. Cheaters don't generally start by hiring people to write their papers and take tests for them. They test the waters with little cheats here and there, pushing the boundaries over time.

If Universities made examples out of students who were 100% confirmed cheating beyond reasonable doubt, the amount of cheating would decline significantly. Instead, we're stuck with this game of half-baked anti-cheating systems which some students approach as game.

Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by kbenson on Thursday April 22, 2021 @01:48PM (#26905646)
> If Universities made examples out of students who were 100% confirmed cheating beyond reasonable doubt, the amount of cheating would decline significantly.

I don't think that actually follows. As I understand it, many universities and zero tolerance plagiarism and cheating policies. The problem is, when you have no middle ground and your policy is extreme, you leave yourself very few options in the cases where you don't want to or can't easily expel the student. If your policy is expulsion for cheating, then not doing so and providing a lesser punishment is seen as favoritism if the student has resources, or is used as ammunition for their own case by students with resources if offered to a deserving student otherwise.

I think the actual solution is well defined, less flexible, but not overly harsh punishments. Any student caught cheating or plagiarizing is not expelled, but immediately either fails the class or drops two letter grades (and a second time in the same class would be failing the class no matter what if the more lenient option was chosen initially).

With extreme consequences teachers are going to be hesitant to report small and borderline cases, because the consequences are so large. Make the consequences manageable for the single occurrences but problematic if they keep happening, and you'll correctly catch those serial cheaters and those occasional ones that are better off just taking the hit (and maybe dropping and retrying the class) instead of letting them slide because the punishment is disproportionate to the crime.

Think of it this way, if the crime for stealing a candy bar was life in prison, would you call attention to the person next to you that you just saw steal a candy bar? Does the store attendant actually call the police, or just take the candy bar back and tell the person to leave? What if the person is rich, and it actually causes you problems to turn them in, because it's worth it to them to make sure they don't suffer that major negative consequence be exerting their influence? If the punishment is seen as disproportionate to the crime, people will make their own decisions to avoid what they see as a problem with the system, and it also means that people with resources are more likely to exert those resources to avoid those problems, to the detriment of those around them (and they'll mostly get away with it, because who wants to die on the hill of making sure someone is punished for something so inconsequential?).

Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by jandrese on Thursday April 22, 2021 @02:38PM (#26906370)
> If Universities made examples out of students who were 100% confirmed cheating beyond reasonable doubt, the amount of cheating would decline significantly. Instead, we're stuck with this game of half-baked anti-cheating systems which some students approach as game.

When I went to school they made a big deal out of the student ethics board, and if you were caught cheating you were brought before it. It was implied that you would be kicked out of school and your cheating conviction would be appended to any other school's request for your transcript.

I don't know how prevalent cheating was at the school.

Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by matheusmoreira on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:55AM (#26943153)
> We can't stress the importance of school and how it will affect the rest of their life, and then not expect them to do whatever it takes to make sure they do well there.

Completely agree. For many students their lives and futures will literally be determined by the result of a single test. Under these circumstances, not using every resource available to win is simply stupid. Why would someone not cheat if possible?

The truth is academic integrity was doomed the second degrees became necessary for employment. People who care about academic integrity are those who are there by choice, not those who are pursuing a degree to improve their chances in the job market. The only possible solution to this problem is to end the "everyone must go to college" meme. Good work opportunities that don't require decades of education would go a long way.

Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by quercusa on Thursday April 22, 2021 @02:20PM (#26906080)
It was eye-opening for me to see how much culture affects the perception and even the understanding of the concept of cheating. People from some non-Western cultures, honestly AFAICT, cannot understand why they should not 'help out' a cousin or older student or a military superior.
Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by biofox on Friday April 23, 2021 @07:27AM (#26913550)
Only anecdotal, but I personally know of one case in China where the bulk of a doctorate was done by a student's friend. Can't speak to how widespread this is, but the problem is real.

Having taught at several institutes in the Anglosphere, a disproportionate amount of cheating I've witnessed has come from those who speak English as a second language. Difficulties with English and the need to 'save face' probably push otherwise honest students into doing this. Which also says something about admission tests. It's something of an open secret that administrators turn a blind eye to suspicious admission results, as enrolment and tuition money are a strong incentive.

It's not an easy problem to solve, but I suspect proper admission filtering would eliminate the bulk of cheating, and the remainder could probably be dealt with by empowering professors.

If the professors or TAs are paying attention, they already know who the cheats are. It's not hard to spot when weak students suddenly start acing tests and mastering skills they didn't understand the week prior. There needs to be more leeway, institutional support, and incentives for academics to challenge suspicious students, e.g. via oral examinations.

Trying to solve this using software is just an attempt to avoid tackling the real problems.

Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by quercusa on Friday April 23, 2021 @09:24AM (#26914499)
> It's something of an open secret that administrators turn a blind eye to suspicious admission results, as enrolment and tuition money are a strong incentive.

Money talks. TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language) scores tend to be treated as gospel, even when it's clear from emails that the student has nowhere near the level of proficiency indicated by the test results.

Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by MattGaiser on Thursday April 22, 2021 @12:52PM (#26904972)
Consequences?

A friend of mine copied an assignment to the point that he even included the other person’s name in the code.

He got 100% and a note telling him not to copy again.

Re:EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd by biofox on Friday April 23, 2021 @07:40AM (#26913658)
There are usually policies to give guidance and mentorship on 'academic conduct' for minor and first-time offenders; but if the cheating was so extensive, then that's a serious dereliction on the examiner's part.

I can understand why it happens though. For the professor to take it further, they'd have to escalate it within the school, involving a whole load of bureaucracy, meetings, production of evidence, and likely a formal hearing with the student, etc. Unfortunately, there's often no incentive or institutional support for professors to do any of this.