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Re:Logica, a novel open-source logic programming language by jerf on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @10:28AM (#26807542)
I'd still be very concerned about putting something as complicated as this on top of SQL, because despite what it says on the tin, SQL is not a declarative language. Any serious database-using application will still be chugging through synonymous queries to get to the one that works right, manually annotating the databases with the indexes it needs, figuring out when to manifest tables or views or any number of other optimizations the engine can't or won't do on its own, and doing a lot of other operations that are hard enough when using SQL directly, but will be made even more so by trying to operate through such an opinionated interface. SQL is already handicapped by trying to be declarative but in practice being a language where a lot of nominally-equivalent things will result in different queries under the hood.

I loooooooooove the ideas being expressed in the post. I am firmly in the camp that SQL needs a deep rethink because of its many and manifold software engineering flaws, and this is exactly the sort of thing I'm thinking of, not just a slight gloss on SQL, but a complete rethink. I'm just not sure this is going to be practical sitting on top of SQL. Make this a native query language for Postgres or something and we'd be talking. One step at a time, though. I'm very positive on this step being taken.

At this point, extracting the industry from its path dependence history [1] of SQL is a Google-sized problem. The engineering itself isn't necessarily a Google-sized problem but the rest of it is.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_dependence - that is, if databases were all separately evolving over the years and only this year were they all going to get together and produce a standard to unify themselves, it would not look like SQL. It would quite likely look a lot more like this. SQL has too many glaring flaws, not least of which is its total composability fail.

Re:Logica, a novel open-source logic programming language by YeGoblynQueenne on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @11:46AM (#26808699)
From what I understand Logica compiles to SQL so it can run on BigQuery. I don't think that's putting it "on top of SQL".

I think it's a bit confusing that datalog is always discussed in the context of databases and as a "query language" etc. In fact it's a subset of Prolog, so it really belongs to the subject of logic programming. It doesn't help that Prolog programs themselves are implemented as databases and that Prolog programming uses terms such as "query" that blur the waters about exactly what one is doing.

I confess I don't have a background in databases and so I only understand the very basics about SQL's semantics, which is the Relational Calculus, but as far as I understand it, RC is a subset of predicate logic (a.k.a. first-order logic). Prolog is itself a different subset of predicate logic, Horn clause logic; and Datalog is a subset of Prolog and equivalent to SQL in expressive power.

Very briefly, every expression in Prolog is a Horn clause. A clause is a disjunction of literals. A literal is an atom, or the negation of an atom. An atom is an atomic formula, a predicate symbol followed by a number of terms in parentheses where the number is the "arity" of the predicate. Terms are variables, functions or constants.

For example, father(john, bob) is an atom of the predicate father/2, where "father" is the symbol and "2" is the arity.

An example of a clause is grandfather(x,y) ∨ ¬father(x,z) ∨ ¬parent(z,y). This is a disjunction of one positive literal, grandfather(x,y) and two negative literals, ¬father(x,z) and ¬parent(z,y). By the rules of logical connectives, the same disjunction can be written as an implication: father(x,z) ∧ parent(z,y) → grandfather(x,y). By Prolog convention also observed in Datalog, implications are written with the positive literal first: grandfather(x,y)← father(x,z), parent(z,y). The left-facing implication arrrow is rendered as ":-" in ASCII friendly manner, conjuctions are represented by the comma, ",", and variables are represented by upper-case letters, yielding the standard Prolog -and Datalog- notation:

  grandfather(X,Y):- father(X,Z), parent(Z,Y).
The above clause is a Horn clause. A clause is Horn when it has at most one positive literal. A Horn clause is definite when it has exactly one positive literal. Horn clauses with 0 positive literals are called "goals", Horn clauses with exactly one positive and 0 negative literals are often called "unit clauses" and Horn clauses with one positive and any number of negative literals are usually called "definite clauses" (confusingly). A definite clause is datalog if it has no functions of arity more than 0 (constants are functions with arity 0) as arguments to a literal. For example, in the following, [1] is Datalog, [2] is not (but is Prolog):

  s(0).           % [1]
  s(N):- s(s(N)). % [2]
Where s(N) is a function (possible to determine syntactically because it's an argument to a lieral). In Prolog parlance, definite clauses are also called "rules", unit clauses are also called "facts" and goal clauses are also called "queries".

Now, s(0) is a Prolog and Datalog fact and is just as fine a SQL table, called "s" and with a single row with one value, "0". Here's a fuller example:

  father(bob,john).
  father(john,alex).
  grandfather(X,Y):- father(X,Z), parent(Z,Y).
That's a Prolog and Datalog program with two "facts" and a "rule". The following are two queries and their results:

  ?- father(X,Y).
  X = bob, Y = john ;
  X = john, Y = alex.

  ?- grandfather(X,Y).
  X = bob, Y = alex ;
  false.
Each query starts with "?-" at the command-line and ends with a "." as all Prolog clauses. Below the query are its results: the instantiations of the variables X and Y in the query that make the query true. The ";" means there may be further results. And "false" means there are no more results.

Now, I leave it as an exercise to the reader (you) to figure out how the above works out with SQL. Keep in mind that father/2 has a clean translation to a SQL table named "father" with two columns, for example named "father" and "child". The "rule" for grandfather/2 is probably best represented as a join.

In any case, as you can probably see, we have here a very different language than SQL, but with semantics that can be seen as, in a sense, being equivalent to the semantics of SQL. Except, where SQL makes a distinction between "data" and "queries over data", Datalog only has facts, rules and queries, that are all Horn clauses and that are all part of the "program database".

So it's not a complicated machinery on top of SQL at all. The only thing I'm concerned is of the naturaleness of SQL queries generated by the "compiler" (some kind of transducer, probably). On the other hand, I reckon SQL is only meant to work as a kind of "relational assembly" and will not have to be seen by any human eyes except in rare cases. Or that's hopefully the plan.

Edit: note there are many, Many, MANY variants of Datalog with confusingly subtly different semantics. See the book I recommended in my comment to juki, below. Personally, I get lost in the variations pretty quickly...

Re:Logica, a novel open-source logic programming language by jerf on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @01:24PM (#26810203)
"I think it's a bit confusing that datalog is always discussed in the context of databases and as a "query language" etc."

It is a reflection of the way that SQL is so ensconced in the developer's gestalt as "The Way To Query Data", such that Querying Data means SQL and SQL means Querying Data, that most people are not capable of coming at something like a logic-based database layer as a first-order element on its own, but can only conceive of it as an SQL layer.

Further observe how there's a category of databases called "NoSQL"... when you have a category of something defined by its not being in some other category, that really shows just how large that category looms in the developer's mindset. NoSQL is slowly cracking the SQL consensus, but it's a long and slow process. You'll know it has really made it when we give a positive name to that category, or perhaps more likely, 3 or 4 names to the several types of databases within. "Document store" is getting close to being the name of one of the styles.

My particular reason for speaking this way though is that this specific technology manifests that way. You'll note I called for this to be made a native query layer, because I'm personally pretty much over SQL and ready for the next thing to come out. I'm tired of it being the 1970s again every time I speak to a database. Unfortunately, it's such a task that it has killed everyone who has tried it so far. AIUI FoundationDB got the closest from anyone I've seen. I'm not sure how they're doing; a cursory web search suggests perhaps they aren't as dead as I thought.

Re:Logica, a novel open-source logic programming language by YeGoblynQueenne on Wednesday April 14, 2021 @02:15PM (#26810906)
>> My particular reason for speaking this way though is that this specific technology manifests that way. You'll note I called for this to be made a native query layer, because I'm personally pretty much over SQL and ready for the next thing to come out.

I agree with that, although since I don't write any SQL anymore, I don't really mind it, as such. But I think the reason Logica is compiled to SQL must be the pervasive association of "database" with "SQL" that you point out. Datalog in fact has its own execution model that doesn't really need SQL. Perhaps the people behind Logica felt that it would be easier for it to be adopted if it piggy-backed on SQL, the same way that so many languages target the JVM etc. I too think that's a little disappointing. But I'm heavily invested in logic programming so I'm glad to see _some kind_ of logic programming language at least created at Google (no idea how much it's used though).