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Re:How People Get Rich Now by thegrimmest on Monday April 12, 2021 @01:57PM (#26782719)
Can I ask a related question? Why all the focus on income/wealth "inequality"? Shouldn't we be looking at the absolute baseline quality of life? Hasn't it been increasing dramatically despite increasing inequality? Due to technological advances, hasn't the baseline quality of healthcare, education, sanitation, nutrition, shelter, comfort, convenience, etc. significantly improved from the 60s or the 80s? If so, why begrudge the rich, especially those who have driven this advancement, their fleets of yachts?
Re:How People Get Rich Now by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:10PM (#26782920)
Three problems:

1. Humans are humans, and they pretty much always judge their success by comparing themselves to others. Or, rather, humans are primates. Take a look at the famous study of the monkey that got cucumber while the other monkey got tastier grapes.

2. Income inequality in and of itself can be a problem because the mega wealthy can essentially buy laws that benefit themselves. There have been many studies that show that politicians are much more responsive to the desires of the rich than the desires of the average person.

3. In any economy, limited resources always go to those on the top of the wealth graph, regardless of cost to produce. So while you may be able to say everyone's standard of living is better, that's cold comfort to someone who won't be able to buy a house in their lifetime because limited land supply goes to the richest.

Re:How People Get Rich Now by thegrimmest on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:14PM (#26782976)
> pretty much always judge their success by comparing themselves to others

Yes but that doesn't mean this comparison has moral standing. Also this behaviour is pretty low-level, neurologically, and we can train our higher executive functions to override and disregard it. I would argue that should be the expectation.

> can essentially buy laws that benefit themselves

Again - so what? As long as everyone's lives are improving on every metric, who cares that the wealthy mess with the tax laws or enact regulatory capture.

> that's cold comfort to someone who won't be able to buy a house in their lifetime because limited land supply goes to the richest.

No, the person (and all other people) should derive their comfort from the gratitude for being able to live in a modern, extremely comfortable world.

Edit: to rephrase, isn't the problem here the expectation/belief that you should have/are entitled to a detached house?

Re:How People Get Rich Now by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday April 12, 2021 @05:08PM (#26785208)
For many people in the US, over the past couple of decades:

1. Housing has become much more unaffordable.

2. Higher education has become much more unaffordable.

3. Retirement income has become much less guaranteed.

4. Employment is much less stable than it used to be.

Just look at the coming eviction tidal wave that will happen after the eviction moratoriums in the US end. Telling people "But look at all the other modern comforts you have now!" will smack as "Let them eat cake" when someone gets kicked out of their house, while the rich got much richer over the past year.

Re:How People Get Rich Now by thegrimmest on Monday April 12, 2021 @06:36PM (#26786053)
> Housing has become much more unaffordable.

That's hardly surprising though is it? The number of people in the US has almost doubled since 1960, and urban population density has increased much more than that. Any expecation that everyone will be able to afford a detached house in any proximity to a metropolis is clearly unreasonable.

> Higher education has become much more unaffordable.

Again, the admissions rate hasn't really kept up with the population has it? Also there's a labour shortage in lots of skilled trades, construction and agricultural labour; and a labour surplus in finance and law. Do you think it's reasonable that everyone expects to attend higher education?

> Retirement income has become much less guaranteed.

I'm not sure how you'd measure retirement income "guaranteedness". Also see "Pension Timebomb" for how actually guaranteed those pensions are.

> Employment is much less stable than it used to be

Do you have a source for this? Ideally one that controls for people changing employment to advance their careers? This is much more common these days for the reasons outlined in the article.

Yes, after being evicted from a place you cannot afford, or after any other trying circumstance, telling people to focus on what they can be grateful for instead of what to be angry about is exactly the right thing to do. What business is it of yours or anyone elses how much money someone else has? Who cares if they have more or less than last year? How is that related to you personally being unable to affort rent due to being unemployed during a pandemic?

Re:How People Get Rich Now by jasonwatkinspdx on Monday April 12, 2021 @03:54PM (#26784325)
Because there are people being left behind. Productivity per person has increased massively over the last half century, yet income per worker has been stagnant unless you break into a few specific contexts. This doesn't appear to be a necessary part of innovation as PG and others claim, but rather is a reflection of concentrated wealth's ability to restructure the market and even the legal system to better serve those concentrated interests. This is the pernicious problem we have to fight. It is in no way somehow exogenously necessary for people to have half billion dollar yachts in order to advance the life of the typical human. "Markets measure merit" is a lie told by those best positioned to control markets to manufacture their own "merit."
Re:How People Get Rich Now by lotsofpulp on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:19PM (#26783042)
>Why all the focus on income/wealth "inequality". Shouldn't we be looking at the absolute baseline quality of life? Hasn't it been increasing dramatically despite increasing inequality? Due to technological advances, hasn't the baseline quality of healthcare, education, sanitation, nutrition, shelter, comfort, convenience, etc. significantly improved from the 60s or the 80s?

If people are feeling more volatility, and that it can all slip out from under them at any time, then all that baseline quality improvement is not worth much. Also, just like many other animals, we are playing a game rooted in the mechanics of mating involving social hierarchy and various tribal mechanics that are key to securing desired resources and reducing the aforementioned volatility. I do not imagine vast gaps in income/wealth/security help the tribe as a whole in this game.

Re:How People Get Rich Now by thegrimmest on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:21PM (#26783062)
> If people are feeling more volatility

Do you think this feeling is reflected in actual risk though? If so, how would you quantify it? If not, shouldn't we expect/teach people not to feel so volatile and be more grateful and content?

Re:How People Get Rich Now by lotsofpulp on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:28PM (#26783152)
Yes, the easiest way to see it is in the lack of income security and wage stagnation for the vast majority. You have to hustle, your employer may not be around for your working lifespan, or they might be obviated by cheaper labor from overseas and/or technology and automation.

Edit: Another example is health insurance is tied to your employer in the US. It costs anywhere from $400 per child per month to $1k per month per adult, with a $17k out of pocket annual maximum. Imagine you've scraped together some savings for a house or a business or kids' education, and a wage earner becomes ill or injured, and can't work. Now you have giant expenses coming your way at your most vulnerable, and government help from Medicaid (for subpar quality healthcare) doesn't kick in until after you've exhausted all your assets, so you are at risk of getting sent back to square 1.

Re:How People Get Rich Now by thegrimmest on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:35PM (#26783260)
Doesn't the article point out that this is pretty much the normal condition of life, with a brief interlude from the 50s into the 80s? Yes, life is unpredictable, bad things happen for no reason. This is a moral condition we all have to accustom ourselves to. I'd speculate that the pain our society seems to be going through now represents a correction towards the normal condition, and that we should adjust our expectations accordingly.
Re:How People Get Rich Now by lotsofpulp on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:48PM (#26783446)
The gist of your original comment was that life has been getting better for everyone. But if you also claim people need to adjust their expectations downward, then some things are not getting better for everyone.

I know that people from the 50s to the 80s didn't have internet, healthcare technology, medicines, smartphones, etc like today. But obviously there is something to be said for the stability or utility of knowing that your children will most likely have a better future than you did, and the demise of this fact (or belief) is causing friction in society.

Re:How People Get Rich Now by thegrimmest on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:59PM (#26783598)
> stability or utility of knowing that your children will most likely have a better future than you did

Depends on how you qualify "better". By the listed measures, this is still the case. By available land/population this is clearly not. Do we have any reason to believe our children will not have better healthcare, nutrition, access to information, etc than we do?

If we don't, then what justification is there for agitation?

Re:How People Get Rich Now by lotsofpulp on Monday April 12, 2021 @04:16PM (#26784598)
>By the listed measures, this is still the case.

What measures? The ones in your original comment?

>healthcare, education, sanitation, nutrition, shelter, comfort, convenience, etc.

In the US, you can trace all of these back to wages, especially since healthcare is tied to your employer in the US, and you can look up any a variety of data to show that wages stagnated decades ago, length of tenure at employers decreased, increased participation in "gig" economy and service industry which don't offer benefits (i.e. loss in wages), consolidation of growing economies in fewer areas of US resulting in cost of land rising disproportionally to income, etc.

> Do we have any reason to believe our children will not have better healthcare, nutrition, access to information, etc than we do?

I don't know who "we" is here, but it's reality for people who spent 20 to 30 years at a manufacturing facility that was then outsourced and who now live in a town with no significant business, whose kids' only hope is to use college to boost themselves into an in demand career, but that involves moving to a HCOL area where they now have to sink a significant amount of money into their land purchase (house) to establish themselves, away from the rest of their family.

>If we don't, then what justification is there for agitation?

I don't know what other sources of information you want, but I know pretty much everyone in my parents' generation got married, had kids, raised families, and now the number of people that are coupled up is around half in my family and friends, and those with kids by mid 30s is even lower, maybe a third.

There's shortages of healthcare providers in rural areas because no one wants to live there, there's more and more competition for in demand areas as everyone tries to get in before they can't afford it.

This is all volatility. This didn't happen when everywhere was growing, but this happens when you have a divergence, and you're either on the upswing or the downswing.

Re:How People Get Rich Now by thegrimmest on Monday April 12, 2021 @07:16PM (#26786337)
> In the US, you can trace all of these back to wages

This seems to disregard the trememdous advances in all the fields of healthcare made in the last 40 years. Treatments are readily available for diseases which were previously death sentences. Treatments that were prohibitively expensive in 1980 are cheaply available today. Once we factor this into our analysis I don't think anything has stagnated.

> whose kids' only hope is to use college to boost themselves into an in demand career

What about trade school? There's a shortage of construction labour and skilled trades throught the country.

> have to sink a significant amount of money into their land purchase (house) to establish themselves, away from the rest of their family

I don't recally anyone being forced to buy houses. Plenty of folks raise families in apartments. I myself was raised in one. Yes when you live in a metropolis you can't afford as much space. And?

> and now the number of people that are coupled up is around half in my family and friends, and those with kids by mid 30s is even lower, maybe a third.

And how much of this would you attribute to people making different choices and having different priorities? How would you control for people's willingness to be poorer and still have children?

Re:How People Get Rich Now by kkoncevicius on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:06PM (#26782856)
Social status is by comparison, that's why. I assume the vast majority of people would choose to be in the aristocracy somewhere in 1300 Europe, compared to middle class today. Even if objectively the middle class has better quality of life.
Re:How People Get Rich Now by thegrimmest on Monday April 12, 2021 @02:10PM (#26782923)
Why on earth would you assume that? Middle Ages aristocracy lived comparatively miserable lives - no daily hot shower, no climate control, nothing resembling health care, no running water or sanitation, no access to information, no international supply chain for food or products (eat only what your community can preserve for the winter). I would wager that any of those aristocrats would gladly amputate their limbs to live as an average person today.
Re:How People Get Rich Now by dsq on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @04:38AM (#26789662)
Interesting to think of, let's say, one of our society's upper class given the opportunity to be a 'regular' person X years from now. Rejuvenation, instant cure for any illness, pain or wound, immersion into world spanning super intelligence, gratification of any physical or emotional desire, personal host of robotic servants, etc. The price is that they would be regular, that is, devoid of superior wealth or power. Would they take it?