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Re:The antidote to civilisational collapse – An interview wi... by adwn on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @04:52AM (#26722025)
> Corruption requires hierarchy, and may well be that hierarchy requires corruption.

I don't think this is true at all. For example, if a policeman A catches county clerk B speeding, B could bribe A to forget about that ticket. That would be corruption, but A and B are not in any hierarchy relation to each other. True, they're in a temporary power relation, but a day later this power relation could well be reversed when B decides whether or not to approve A's building permit for his new house.

Re:The antidote to civilisational collapse – An interview wi... by jampekka on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:00AM (#26722067)
If authority holder A's actions affect authority holder B's decisions on A's that's more or less corruption in my books. And probably something that happens everyday, even literally the in the case that you describe. If A forgets the ticket and B approves the building permit because of it, this is corruption. A and B may benefit, but society at large doesn't.
Re:The antidote to civilisational collapse – An interview wi... by adwn on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:04AM (#26722106)
> If A forgets the ticket and B approves the building permit because of it, this is corruption.

That's not what I meant, there's no quid pro quo in my example. My point was that neither A nor B are above or below each other in a hierarchy, and there's no permanent power imbalance between them, and yet they could both be corrupt. Corruption doesn't require a hierarchy, and a flat hierarchy doesn't prevent corruption.

Re:The antidote to civilisational collapse – An interview wi... by jampekka on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:20AM (#26722230)
Both A and B have hierarchy given authorities. That A can fine and B can issue permits both stem from a hierarchical system. Perhaps more exact is to say that corruption requires authority.

Flatter hierarchy does not prevent corruption totally, probably nothing will. But it will make corruption harder and more expensive. Some hierarchies, at least context dependent, are probably inevitable. It's a matter of scale.

Re:The antidote to civilisational collapse – An interview wi... by adwn on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:29AM (#26722302)
> Perhaps more exact is to say that corruption requires authority.

Yes, that would be more correct. Authority != hierarchy, but you can't have a society without authority. You could start out with anarchy, but then authoritative structures would naturally emerge anyway.

Re:The antidote to civilisational collapse – An interview wi... by jampekka on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:58AM (#26722578)
Anarchistic views accept hierarchies and some sorts of authority, but these should be based on voluntary association (as far as possible) and only temporary and to serve some concrete purpose.
Re:The antidote to civilisational collapse – An interview wi... by chriswarbo on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @07:28AM (#26723297)
> For example, if a policeman A catches county clerk B speeding, B could bribe A to forget about that ticket. That would be corruption, but A and B are not in any hierarchy relation to each other.

This example only works if there is a hierarchy:

- Policeman A wouldn't take the bribe, unless it's big enough relative to his wealth

- Clerk B wouldn't offer the bribe, unless it's small enough relative to his wealth

There is an economic hierarchy implicit in the example. The consequences of the ticket are also important, since there's no point spending more on a bribe than would have to be paid in fines.