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Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by prox on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @04:16AM (#26487881)
The problem with the article and also with your comment is that we use one word “meditation” , while it is as diverse as any discipline. You do raise very good points otherwise! Buddhist vipassana meditation is a long way from a vast range of yogic type meditations, or Sufi meditations and so forth. This clouds the discussion.

As someone who has instructed meditation, our lineage has many safe guards to make it mild for the neophyte to pick up and practice safely. First off all, not by renouncing the world, but by being part of it. Second to never overdo it. Third, no more than three pranayama breaths when you start.

The yoga sutras talk about sthira and sukha, effort and ease, which should be in balance. Basically you wouldn’t send someone up mount Everest untrained. Nor is there a reason to for the layman interested in the relaxation of the mind.

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by tugberkk on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @04:56AM (#26488205)
This! I read Zen tradition and their meditation is sitting, calming and contemplating on things (depending on their school).

The word "meditation" is used for almost everything and in different senses.

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by prox on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:14AM (#26489988)
We don’t use sitting for beginners (this is not zen btw) they can lie down. The worst thing that can happen is they fall asleep (which happens on a rare occasion, most stay present through certain cues we use)

Sitting in half lotus or milder variations is hard for the chair accustomed person! Not to mention that lotus/half lotus can be tough, sometimes wrecking even, on the knees,hips or lowerback.

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by krueger71 on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @07:37AM (#26489629)
The first variant of Zen-meditation is often to count your breathing from 1 to 10 repeatedly. Sounds easy enough, but the mind starts to wander pretty quickly. If you get lost in your counting you just start over on 1 again.
Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by yomly on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:10AM (#26489942)
Zen meditation seems to be the meditation I have experienced and practised. Both formally and informally. I am unsure this form could lead me to completely fall off the rails, but I also don't think I could sincerely practise it for more than a couple of days (with lots of rest) without just giving up from mental exhaustion. In the same way I wouldn't want to run a marathon tomorrow with no training (even though I have actually run one before).

I suppose were I to subject myself to a week+ of meditation in my current state, I could conceivably "injure" myself if I were stubborn in my persistence. So maybe the warnings in this article aren't so unintuitive after all.

Would love for someone knowledgeable to contrast this form to the other forms mentioned in this thread for someone who is open minded and not a complete outsider.

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by elbear on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:42AM (#26490242)
Even if you don't go on retreats and just have a regular daily practice, there could come a point where you experience unusual, unpleasant moments.

The explanation might be difficult for you to accept, if you don't accept Buddhist philosophy (if you don't believe in enlightenment, basically).

If you are a materialist, you don't believe there is anything else besides matter. You are just your body.

Well, at some point during your meditation, you might experience the fact that this world is a construct, a fabrication. But if you don't know how to put it into context, it will feel like nothing, void, nonexistence. This could shock your mind-body system.

There are several ways to avoid this.

First, familiarise yourself with the Buddhist conceptual framework. Entertain the possibility that it is an accurate view of reality. The best book that I know for this is Dreams of light by Andrew Holecek.

Second, look into practices that cultivate positive mental states. Some examples are forgiveness meditation and metta meditation. A relaxed and open mind can more easily hold difficult experiences.

Third, take it slow and don't push yourself if you're having difficult experiences. Find a teacher or a community where you can ask for advice. One community that I recommend is /r/streamentry on Reddit.

I hope meditation is fruitful for you. Let me know if you have questions.

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by eurasiantiger on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @11:12AM (#26492314)
Simply put, one is directly experiencing the fact that their sense-experiences are a construction and not the real thing.
Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by yomly on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @12:26PM (#26493367)
>Well, at some point during your meditation, you might experience the fact that this world is a construct, a fabrication. But if you don't know how to put it into context, it will feel like nothing, void, nonexistence. This could shock your mind-body system.

Without being arrogant or facetious this feels like a truism to me? After all, our sense of self is an emergent property of unfeeling chemical machines.

I suppose this is where philosophy of the self and ego comes into play which tends to stick people into two camps.

That said, I have yet to feel my mind wander down these paths and experiences during meditation. Although I have experienced something almost similar to psycho activity/wakeful dreaming during yoga shavasana

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by elbear on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @01:06PM (#26493970)
I'm not talking about just the sense of self. I'm talking about the fact that the world is an illusion.

In any case, I may not be conveying the message properly, because I'm still trying to understand these things conceptually.

The book I mentioned does a far better job with this.

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by labawi on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @07:44PM (#26498188)
> the fact that the world is an illusion.

I may not be disagreeing with what you mean, but one should be careful to differentiate between concepts, that are knowable, and things they refer to, which are not¹. Lots of confusion stems from mistaking the two. From what you were taught are apples to the world or ones own self.

As an illustration, if I slap your face, you may argue it is an illusion, it may not affect your later in life, and you may not even remember it. I take it as true, that words nor imagination are no match for an actual good slap. After a slap, people may disagree whether it was a slap, they may have illusions about who, what, how or why .. yet I don't think many will argue it is an illusion in the sense that nothing in fact happened.

¹ Well, most of them anyway.

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by elbear on Thursday March 18, 2021 @04:44AM (#26500674)
This is the risk of trying to summarize a big conceptual framework in just a few words. It leaves out a lot and its only hope is to entice the reader to explore further and discover that entire conceptual framework.

Even that conceptual framework can not describe what can't be described. It can only get you to experience again and again what can only be experienced until the moment that concepts drop off.

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by pattt on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @07:00AM (#26489288)
Zen masters also rejected meditation as a means to the spiritual progress because there is no such thing in the tradition. Sitting quietly is more appropriate IMHO.
Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by eternalban on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:23AM (#26490058)
I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation. To wit, your "Nor is there a reason to for the layman interested in the relaxation of the mind" underlines that fact. Zikr (remembrance of God's names and attributes) is highly recommended to all Muslims in the Qur'an, officially rated at being higher than prayer. It's not about "mind hacking". It is closer to Zen's "oxherding" purpose.

> First off all, not by renouncing the world, but by being part of it.

What is the world to me? What am I to the world? Truly, the example of this world and myself is that of a rider who seeks shade under a tree, then he moves on and leaves it behind. - Prophet Muhammad

So there are the very subtle (but quite important) distinctions made by Muhammad (SAWS) here regarding the correct meaning of "detachment" and "world" and the mental and spiritual position of the 'Completed Human' regarding these matters. (Many in their misguided and mininformed zeal about "poverty" and "detachment" forget about that comforting "shade" he mentioned. "Seek shade under a tree". Mediate on that.)

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by Arun2009 on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:44AM (#26490268)
> I don't think it correct to equate Zikr with meditation.

Maybe I am missing something, but Zikr sounds suspiciously like japa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa), which is a well accepted form of concentration meditation in all Dharmic traditions. Many teachers will ask neophytes to have a regular japa practice, where you recite a mantra a certain number of times often with the help of a mAlA, first audibly, and gradually, mentally (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japa#Degrees_of_loudness). The idea being that it's easier to focus on a gross object at first to keep your mind steady, and later proceed to more subtle forms. Patanjali himself recommends that Om be chanted and its meaning reflected upon (https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjal...).

The forms of meditations in dharmic traditions is quite bewildering. Patanjali himself recommends to concentrate on anything that you are comfortable with (https://www.himalayanacademy.com/saivite-scriptures/patanjal...).

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by eternalban on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @11:59AM (#26492982)
Zikr is “remembrance of God”. Typical “mantras” are specific names of God, as given by the Pir (elder) to the seeker/neophyte.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhikr

So of course, Zikr is a subset of general contemplation and given the universality of human body and psyche, you will find shared elements (such as seating, lowering & raising of head/gaze, and the big one, breathing) in various methodologies of contemplation across cultures, religions, and schools. This is to be expected and is natural.

In a sense, one could possibly say that Meditation aimed towards mastering the mind, whereas Zikr aims for breaking the imaginal boundary of lower self (i.e. aims for Unity of Selves harmonized by “Names”) by being fully focused and mindful of ‘The One’. Chanting Om is quite close to the effect.

Re:Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation by Arun2009 on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @12:56PM (#26493802)
Thanks. That was quite informative.