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Re:Reasons for using Golang by derefr on Sunday June 12, 2011 @06:19AM (#2646229)
> fundamental problems (shared mutable state, nullability by default...)

Those aren't the "fundamental problems of C", those are the reasons people use C in the first place. The point of "systems languages" like C and Go is that they directly expose a (standardized interface to) the Von Neumann architecture your computer actually implements, which allows for arbitrary references to memory that may be uninitialized, multiply-aliased, etc. This is what allows for the efficient implementation of such things as garbage collectors, process schedulers, virtual memory managers, IPC libraries, network stacks, and so forth, that the runtimes for higher-level languages rely upon as fundamental abstractions.

So, given the assumption that such code is necessary to write, why shouldn't we try to have a better language to write it in than C? I'm not suggesting that Go is such a language, but your argument seems to be that it's pointless to try to do better than C (because every language, no matter how good, starts with no one using it, and thus necessarily will have fewer programmers than C does.)

Re:Reasons for using Golang by JulianMorrison on Sunday June 12, 2011 @12:12PM (#2646710)
Well, no, the state that's shared, is shared across goroutines in Go, or across Posix threads in C. Those are not directly exposing the machine, those are exposing a particular type of abstract machine over the actual machine. Contrast Erlang processes which are built on the same machine but have different assumptions (message passing by copying, no shared state)

In fact there are hardware models that fit Erlang better, such as non-cache-coherent NUMA. So from a certain perspective, it's not that C is low level, it's that the CPU was designed to execute C. And the CPU is anyhow general enough to be used in non-C-like ways.

I personally think Go missed a trick when it didn't require channel data to be provably impossible to alias across goroutines. (It could be immutable, pass-by-value, or "unique" such that aliasing is disallowed.)

As for nulls, Go actually doesn't really have them, the poster above is mistaken - Go has zeroed values, and you are encouraged to make them valid-but-empty. That includes zeroed pointers.

Re:Reasons for using Golang by sid0 on Sunday June 12, 2011 @03:02PM (#2647121)
Go has zeroed values, and you are encouraged to make them valid-but-empty. That includes zeroed pointers.

Is there a material difference between that and null? I don't care what I'm "encouraged" to do -- does the language force you to opt in to null?

Re:Reasons for using Golang by JulianMorrison on Sunday June 12, 2011 @06:18PM (#2647540)
http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#The_zero_value

Yes if you're using pointer-like things, but at least in Go it's an unsurprising thing, all uninitialized data is zeroed. And Go permits you to work with by-value structs and arrays if you want.

Re:Reasons for using Golang by sid0 on Sunday June 12, 2011 @07:08PM (#2647618)

  t.next == nil
I don't give a fuck whether it's called null or 0 or nil or whatever, or whether it's amazing or surprising or shocking. Every single pointer has null as a possible value, which means Go suffers from what I think is the biggest possible mistake a (non-scripting) programming language could make (and I'm not alone -- Tony Hoare thinks the same). The worst thing about all this is that we already have a well-known and well-studied solution in the Maybe monad, yet the Go designers buried their collective heads in the sand here.
Re:Reasons for using Golang by JulianMorrison on Sunday June 12, 2011 @08:55PM (#2647776)
On the upside, Go does not suffer from the common Java anti pattern of returning a semantically meaningful null. Its multiple return means that while it can't return "Maybe Foo", it usually returns something like "Either Error Foo", with the multiple assignment taking the place of a rather primitive pattern match. Also a go function is typically structured like a primitive Either monad - it returns with an error immediately if it gets one, or else it returns from the end with a value.
Re:Reasons for using Golang by sid0 on Sunday June 12, 2011 @11:31PM (#2648018)
Tons of functions in most imperative languages are structured in an early-return-on-error style, with exceptions simply being a special case of that. That is neither novel nor uncommon.
Re:Reasons for using Golang by JulianMorrison on Monday June 13, 2011 @07:15AM (#2648679)
But not with multiple return where (as an idiomatic design pattern) the same error object is passed up through the call stack until something decides to handle it, which is what the Either monad does. (And unlike exceptions, the Go way and the Either monad are both explicit, there are no unmarked returns.)

The C way with single return means that it's generally impossible to just forward the same error object - the caller has a different type from the callee, so where one returns null another has to return -1, and so forth.

Re:Reasons for using Golang by sid0 on Sunday June 12, 2011 @06:21AM (#2646233)
Justify the need for nullability by default (and not something like the Maybe monad) to implement (say) a process scheduler. Justify the need for nullability by default (and not something like the Maybe monad) to implement a network stack. Go does GC itself, so writing a garbage collector in Go is too inception-y.

My point is that it's stupid and harmful to do a little better than C when you can actually learn from experience [1] and the last forty years of PL research and do much better than C.

[1] http://qconlondon.com/london-2009/presentation/Null+Referenc...

Re:Reasons for using Golang by derefr on Sunday June 12, 2011 @06:31AM (#2646243)
Edit: I see that you've changed your request. This was originally "justify the need for (say) unsafe pointers in (say) a process scheduler."

A process scheduler's job involves saving and unloading the virtual memory mapping of a process that is blocked or pre-empted, and overwriting it with the virtual memory mapping of a new process. The process scheduler must have direct access to physical memory in order to perform this transition. Any kind of pointer safety would be built on top of a virtual memory abstraction; the process scheduler must necessarily be outside of this abstraction to do its job.

Re:Reasons for using Golang by sid0 on Sunday June 12, 2011 @06:35AM (#2646244)
The process scheduler must have direct access to physical memory in order to perform this transition.

Given that a scheduler's going to be running in kernel mode, why can it not just muck around with kernel address space and leave it to the page table to do the translation?

Yeah, I did clarify my request a little -- by safe I meant safe with optional nullability.

Re:Reasons for using Golang by ori_b on Sunday June 12, 2011 @07:45AM (#2646309)
How does it muck about with the kernel address space again? Oh right, by writing to magic locations in memory. The same way that you interface with virtually all hardware, for that matter.
Re:Reasons for using Golang by sid0 on Sunday June 12, 2011 @03:03PM (#2647126)
No, you misunderstand: I believe most of the operations you need to perform a context switch are safe in the kernel's context. Sure, you'll need a bit of assembly code to copy out and set registers and stuff, and you can't do that bit in C either. But other than that, safe pointers should work.