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Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by runarberg on Friday March 12, 2021 @01:28AM (#26432745)
At the risk of entertaining the no true Scotsman:

A leftist that doesn’t empathize with the masses, is not a true leftist.

Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by ralusek on Friday March 12, 2021 @12:17PM (#26438118)
There is no consistent conception of the masses to the left. Traditionally, there is the labor class and the capital class. In the modern left, oppressors and oppressed are typically determined by identity group, but the game is the same. To win the game of leftism, you better pray that you're in the "masses."
Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by runarberg on Friday March 12, 2021 @12:56PM (#26438660)
True. A Marxist will have a different conception of the masses from an anarchist (even though the intersection is usually pretty large). But I fail to see what that has to do with anything. There is no game of leftism. The goal is to free people from the tyranny of capitalism and fascism (marxists might emphasize the former while anarchists the latter).

Leftists generally accept rich folks sympathetic to the cause, even though they technically don’t belong to the masses. For example Marxists and anarchists alike generally accept Henry David Thoreau and Leo Tolstoy as leftists (even though the latter was born into great wealth), and leftists generally accept Dan Price (#DanPriceSeattle on twitter) even though he is a boss (i.e. not off the masses).

Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by Noos on Friday March 12, 2021 @01:19PM (#26438951)
It is not to free people, it is to free the abstract idea of people. This is how leftists are as tyrannical as everyone. They have a romantic idea of the poor which is not tied to their actual existence or wants, and act on it. Too often, it is just a way to morally justify their own wants or desires. Any evil can be justified if it helps a faceless mass of people.
Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by runarberg on Friday March 12, 2021 @01:57PM (#26439468)
> romantic idea of the poor

It is actually quite fun to read Dostoevsky’s Idiot with that in mind that Dostoevsky might have written Prince Myshkin (the Idiot) with Leo Tolstoy in mind. Dostoevsky was very much not a man of means, whereas Tolstoy literally came from a line of nobility. To Dostoevsky, Tolstoy’s talk of the impoverished must have sounded like he had no idea what he was talking about.

That being said, I do think that romanticism of the poor is a really old school mentality, maybe some boomers sometimes still engage in it, but I doubt that you’ll find contemporary leftists engaging in it. Today’s left is much more AOC and Greta Thunberg complaining about how shitty life is for the poor (with a substantial retweet history each backing up poor people calling for it).

Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by ralusek on Friday March 12, 2021 @01:04PM (#26438756)
There is no game of leftism? The game is for the oppressed class to take power from the oppressor class. Who fits into which of those classes is a contentious issue, though as I said, more frequently predicated on identity than anything else.

Also, to be free of the "tyranny of capitalism and fascism," I hope that those are two different categories. Capitalism and fascism are near polar opposites.

It's also important to understand that leftism necessarily ushers in tyranny. It is impossible, not just in practice, but in theory, for leftism to be implemented without an authoritarian state. If you attempt to get around this constraint, it will only be by you failing to describe a state whose outcomes will fall within the objectives of leftism, or by describing an authoritarian state by any other name (syndicates, guilds, unions).

Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by leereeves on Friday March 12, 2021 @04:55AM (#26433912)
Unfortunately it can be difficult to tell who empathizes with the masses and who is just pretending to in pursuit of power.
Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by TheAdamAndChe on Friday March 12, 2021 @07:42AM (#26435166)
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Power is simply the capacity to influence the behavior of others, and in a democracy, it is leveraged to get anything done.
Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by tehjoker on Friday March 12, 2021 @10:29AM (#26436825)
In the US today, you're a real dumb dumb if you try to attain power via a left platform. A handful of people did it (AOC, Omar, Taleib) but by far if you want a successful career you take a mainstream R or D position and just try to outdo everyone else in culture war takes. I'll point out that "the squad" is social democratic in nature, they aren't as far left as you can go by far.

A left position calls for redistribution of wealth and transfer of control of the means of production, which gets you attacked from nearly all establishment sides.

Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by leereeves on Friday March 12, 2021 @12:09PM (#26437999)
The establishment isn't what it once was.

Obama turned out to be an establishment President (with bailouts, not prosecutions, for the architects of the housing bubble and crash) but he ran as an anti-establishment candidate.

Then, despite obviously being part of the establishment, Hillary tried to do the same, arguing that she as a woman she clearly wasn't part of the establishment ("Sen. Sanders is the only person who I think would characterize me, a woman running to be the first woman president, as exemplifying the establishment.")

She lost to Trump, who - despite being a billionaire white male - constantly attacked and was attacked by the establishment, in particular as a "populist", someone chosen by the people, not the establishment.

And until the DNC united behind Biden, Bernie was giving him a serious challenge, and Biden was relying on his anti-establishment rep with his "black firewall".

Meanwhile, Bloomberg was painted as the clueless establishment candidate and laughed out of the race.

A young politician (left or right) studying recent events would be smart to run away from the establishment, just as so many elder politicians have (while perhaps seeking establishment support in secret, and hoping not to be caught).

Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by AnthonyMouse on Friday March 12, 2021 @01:20PM (#26438958)
This is strongly undercut by "the DNC (i.e. the establishment) united behind Biden" who is currently POTUS instead of Bernie or Trump.
Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by leereeves on Friday March 12, 2021 @01:54PM (#26439419)
But facing enormous pressure from a younger generation that seems to be far to the left of Biden and was not happy with either Biden or Harris, but voted against Trump rather than for Biden.

And even with all Trump's failings as a person, it was a close election between the unpopular populist and the likeable establishment compromise. Is that evidence of establishment strength?

Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by glogla on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:12AM (#26432987)
Thats hard since sometimes the masses are fighting against being helped (because that would be socialism) while languishing in poverty.

Do they really have the right to commit suicide by policy, taking us with them via climate change?

It is realy hard to empathize with those.

Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by marcosdumay on Friday March 12, 2021 @10:11AM (#26436610)
> the masses are fighting against being helped

If you are looking for a clearler symptom that you don't empathize with them, there isn't any.

What is not a moral failing, by the way. But check your "Left" label, because it's probably wrong.

Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by glogla on Friday March 12, 2021 @10:36AM (#26436895)
You can be Left without empathizing with people who want you dead. That's a pretty straightforward application of Paradox of Tolerance.
Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by marcosdumay on Friday March 12, 2021 @12:21PM (#26438181)
It's entirely your choice who you empathize with. If you don't act over your indifference, it doesn't harm anybody. It's impossible to empathize with everybody.

The criticism people are raising is about a kind of hypocrisy, even when lying is entirely to oneself.

Re:You can't censor away extremism or any other problem by runarberg on Friday March 12, 2021 @11:23AM (#26437424)
I know a certain Jesus Christ who would disagree with you. In seriousness though, visiting poor rural American during Trump is a really numbing experience. You see the people there flagging Trump signs everywhere while living in dirt poor conditions. It is hard not to emphasize with them even though they are calling for everything you are fighting against.

After all, the establishment has failed those people. The democratic party has severely failed them. Democracy it self has failed them. I know that really capitalism has failed them and they would find better answers under socialism then under Trump (after all Trump has failed them as well). But you must still understand where this is coming from. That is you must empathize with them, even though their views are wrong.