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Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by NoOneNew on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @09:03AM (#26398803)
Um... a few folks in the comments dont get what "freedom" means. It's not about getting stuff for free, not matter how essential both of us might agree whatever it is. It's more the restrictions the gov and society have in influencing and punishing an individual. A freedom is a legal principle, not a "thing".

You are free to practice whatever religion, or no religion, without being burned at the stake, locked up or put through a re-education camp.

You are free to express an opinion without being stoned to death, imprisoned or disappear.

You're free from entities taking your stuff because they have a lineage name or are part of the correct political party of the time. This is what possession is nine-tenths of the law generally refers to. Protects your ownership of stuff. And yes, this is also very contested.

You're free to associate with people without being guilty of something they did.

Freedom to gather and/or converse with whom you choose even if the gov or society doesn't like them.

You have the freedom of legal recourse against someone of a higher class. We take this for granted. This isnt a thing in quite a few societies, especially in history, and western countries are still plagued with the in reality practice, but it is in the legal letter at least.

There's obviously lots more. Obviously a lot of these are infringed often. But that's the thing, they are "infringed" and that's not considered okay, normally. Life is messier than debate and rhetoric circles. The recent freedom of expression issues is a good example of not knowing the slippery slope implications (I'm a Polish-Jew. censoring anyone, including Nazis solves nothing. Only makes it worse. Open debate is the only real cure for stupid. Getting your book or album banned is the fastest way to top the sales charts. History is on my side regarding this one.)

While healthcare is important, free healthcare isn't a "freedom" nor should it be considered as one. We are free to discuss the value, want and vote to implement, as we should. But you dont call a vaccine a fruit just because they're both important. Dont confuse legal principles with necessities. Doing so dilutes the meaning and can cause further harm in the protection of freedoms from corrupt forms of gov and social authorities.

Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by dennis_jeeves on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @09:52AM (#26399324)
>Um... a few folks in the comments dont get what "freedom" means. It's not about getting stuff for free, not matter how essential both of us might agree whatever it is.

Well said. But what to do you? Cannot convincing those simians either. It's tragedy of the masses ... ( quote out of context but I guess it expresses how I feel)

9 Wolves and a sheep deciding whats for dinner...

Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by NoOneNew on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @11:18AM (#26400277)
Totally understand what you're saying. But I think it's more true that there's 1 wolf, 1 sheepdog and 8 sheep. Probably more my philosophical outlook on society coming through. I think 80% of people are perfectly rational. It's 10% on one extreme and 10% on the other extreme, of the population that are "at battle". They just convince the other 80% that, "It's your problem too".

But circling back to what you said, what can you do? Sheep follow. Someone is going to convince you of the best way to "security".

Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by dennis_jeeves on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @12:01PM (#26400784)
I agree on the more nuanced split which includes the sheepdog :) The patriotic people who enforce rules of the tyrant...
Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by NoOneNew on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @12:25PM (#26401078)
People who are on the "correct side of history" are extremists too. We just all end up agreeing with them collectively at some point. Freedom of religion was an extremely extremists, fanatical viewpoint at one point. Same goes with abolitionism, equal rights and worker's rights. Plenty of people died for those.
Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by dennis_jeeves on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @12:44PM (#26401321)
Agree, that is indeed a nuanced observation.
Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by NoOneNew on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @02:09PM (#26402542)
Yea, I didnt mean to harp on you about that distinction. I try to pull apart concepts maybe too much. Like, would you consider Dick Cheney a wolf or a sheepdog from my description? I think most would think wolf, which I agree to. But think of this, what if that man's personality was exactly the same, but he put his tenacity to saving rainforests instead of oil? Pushing a massive, violent war to save all the trees. Then gets on TV and says he doesn't care what the public thinks, what are they going to do about it? Is he still a wolf? I kind of still think so, but is it because I hate his goals, his methods, or am I just jealous of his capabilities? Because seriously, anyone that clear cuts trees will shit themselves the day Cheney hits his head and gets the idea of saving all the woodland creatures. International laws dont apply to that man. Those same folks dont fear a save the trees article or FB post. So yea, do people hate the man, the goals or the capabilities of the man? Both wolves and sheepdogs are capable of the exact same thing, we just judge on the morality of their goals, segmenting them to how they benefit our own interests. Escobar and El Chapo were legit heroes to some people after all. Maybe I just dont like how the current populus discourse is hand wavy on treating morality, judgement and a person's character.
Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by dennis_jeeves on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @02:15PM (#26402639)
Got it. ( didn't think you were harping on anyway - I'm not _that_ judgemental you know... :) )
Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by freed5666 on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @11:22AM (#26400339)
But at least the case of healthcare in the US is a very special case. They are literally looting the people. Even an ambulance ride costs huge amounts.
Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by NoOneNew on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @11:54AM (#26400683)
No, again, you're confusing services (and desperate desire) with legalities. This idea that words shouldn't have definite and finite meaning is the biggest problem. Freedoms are legal concepts, not services.

I am for universal healthcare. But, universal healthcare is not a "freedom" anymore than electricity or running water is.

Getting a service for free is not a freedom. It's a benefit. A vital, important, necessary benefit. Absolutely. But, the same goes for water and electricity. How many people recently IMMEDIATELY died due to lack of water and power from those winter storms? I would argue free water and electricity should come before healthcare. You cut off 3rd party provided water and 3rd party provided electricity to the country, more people would die faster in 1 year than cutting off 3rd party provided healthcare. Of course it's a compounding problem at that, but you get the point.

But just like taking your freedoms for granted, you take your standard of living for granted. Why not start making more services for free? It's not a bad idea at first, but where do you actually draw the line? Healthcare is important for life expectancy and general living for a population, but the exact same can be said about running water or electricity... or natural gas if used for heating. I'm not going to argue for natural gas services to be paid for 100% by the gov for obvious reasons. But you know what, if I argue that electricity is vital for heating/cooling and basic living standards to keep people alive, thus must be paid for 100% by the gov... well... why can't natural gas say the same? Arguing for free running water is even easier than electricity.

Re:Less than 20% of the world's population now live in a “fr... by xbar on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @09:07AM (#26398841)
Well said.