Well, the burden is proof is on the vaccine to show that is near completely safe and that it is clearly providing a benefit, isn't it? ( not the other way round where the burden of proof is put on someone to prove that it not harmful).

The point that I'm trying to make is this - to the extent I have looked I see no clear benefit, and in some cases there appears to be a clear harm. So why bother taking it?

>Vaccines are or are not harmful?

My guess - only one 1 or 2 are effective, rest are either useless or harmful. These are ball park figures based on fair amount of reading/listening, I could be wrong. But it begs the question, why should it be so hard to see clear benefits? One has only so much time to investigate these things, I did it years back and have moved on. My default today is to mistrust anything that medicine has to offer. ( it used to be the other way round)

Also don't forget to look at the drugs Thalidomide and Vioxx - should give you a glimpse of the how murky the industry is. These are IMO not isolated incidents. That should at least tip you off in the right direction.

Last, but not the least - if a vaccine has clear benefits ( based on broader set of parameters that I would consider) , I would take it, who in their right mind does not want to protect their health?

" to the extent I have looked I see no clear benefit"

The elimination/near elmination of polio? rubella? measles? Soon COVID? Etc..

" the burden is proof is on the vaccine to show that is near completely safe"

They do.

"My guess - only one 1 or 2 are effective, rest are either useless or harmful ... I could be wrong."

Yes, completely wrong.

"don't forget to look at the drugs Thalidomide ..."

There are thousands upon thousands of drugs. Some are going to fail, many will be misrepresented. Like everything in life. It doesn't mean they don't work.

"My default today is to mistrust anything that medicine has to offer."

This is irrationally conspiratorial, indicative of a broader problem.

"who in their right mind does not want to protect their health?"

The above statements are not so 'right of mind' unfortunately.

There are no Lizard People trying to control us, and most of the people in non-political power are doing their jobs reasonably on some level. There are some systematic failures (i.e. Walmart over-subscribing oxycontin) but most of us are not surprised when that happens.

Approved vaccines are overwhelmingly more effective than they are detrimental, i.e. the 'balance of outcomes' is monumentally positive.

>The elimination/near elimination of polio? rubella? measles? Soon COVID? Etc..

All of them have alternative explanations not found in mainstream media. ( and no I won't put forth the material for you. You will have to look for it)

>>"My guess - only one 1 or 2 are effective, rest are either useless or harmful ... I could be wrong."

>Yes, completely wrong.

So I presume you looked/read at many of these vaccines closely, way beyond what is found is mainstream media?

>most of the people in non-political power are doing their jobs reasonably on some level.

This is where I have changed my mind over the years. People may be sincere but not competent.

Out of curiosity, do you believe in anything publicly considered a "conspiracy theory"? (For example, "9/11 was an inside job", "Holocaust wasn't real/deaths were unintentional due to disease", "Sandy Hook shooting wasn't real", " COVID-19 isn't real/isn't nearly as dangerous as reported", "US politicians rape and murder children in Satanic rituals".)

meowface, most things that you mentioned above cannot be personally verified ( except for the holocaust and COVID 19), so 'believe' is a strong word. It's simple - I don't trust the media or gov anymore. It's difficult to segregate fact from fiction.

With certain aspects of medicine/health it is relatively easy to verify, if one listens to the renegade doctors, experiment with diets. ( the US dietary guideline pyramid - can actually be inverted, I'm not kidding)

There is a larger point I'm trying to make: it's easy to believe the media, no work is needed, but to investigate take time/effort/perseverance which I have done to the best possible extent.

At the risk of taking this thread further off-topic from OP, I just want to point out that in the two posts you've made here, you've provided a timely example of exactly what I described: you made vague references to 'credible' sources without citing them, included some authoritative-sounding numbers, but have yet to make a single claim that could be either proven or refuted. You try to make it sound like you're just a skeptical rationalist. Although, I am sure when you are amongst more suggestible people you speak with even greater authority and make stronger claims about the dangers of vaccines. That is to say, pure bullshit!

I don't normally do this, but based on keywords you've inexplicably crammed into your HN profile and a cursory reading of your own websites and posts that you've linked to from there, you fit the bill exactly. Paranoiac, self-congratulatory screeds about the deluded masses that you've somehow managed to emerge from as some kind of enlightened individualist. Seriously, consider how much effort you are exerting to construct this elaborate justification for your conditions. You would be much better off if you just focused on improving your station in life without positioning yourself as John Galt amongst a world gone astray.

Thank you for your psychoanalysis of me. Just what I was looking for.