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Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by boomboomsubban on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:17PM (#26259294)
It's crazy to think what is basically a branch of the NSA (sorry Echelon member states) has the will and means to go on strike. Those kinds of tendencies would likely disqualify you from the job here.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by underseacables on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:26PM (#26259356)
Is there any job which should not be allowed to strike? It seems this is a disagreement over money which compared to national security may not quite balance.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by rsj_hn on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:58PM (#26259532)
Many government positions do not give you a right to strike.

The idea of striking is to force the company to raise prices or cut management salary and give more to workers, so it's a type of political battle over the economic surplus created by the firm. That makes sense in, say, a factory or business where there is a surplus to be fought over.

But Government agencies have no surpluses, they run deficits and they have management salaries set by law, so things are pretty much take it or leave it.

On the other hand, workers in these companies benefit from a host of legal protections and legally encoded pay scales so the usual method is to sue that some worker protection was being violated or that a promotion to a higher pay bracket was unfairly withheld. Private sector workers tend not to have these types of regulated interactions with employers and so for them striking is a more appropriate option.

Where you see government unions more is in local government, so say teachers can threaten to go on strike unless the city council raises taxes or cuts some other program to divert more to them. That obviously has disadvantages as it means the less unionized budgets get less funding and its hard for smaller departments to defend their budgets vis-a-vis departments with more union members. Federal government workers, OTOH, which must be funded by Congress and signed by the Executive, are in a different boat as they have less power to threaten Congress than a local government. In either case, the unions are not striking against the management of the agency, so it is not a typical strike. They are striking against the funding authority, so it's not the classical case of a class struggle over the producer surplus. Rather, it's a struggle between workers and taxpayers, not workers and management. The private sector equivalent would be a firm refusing to produce goods if consumers didn't buy them. If that firm was a monopoly. And consumers were legally forced to buy the goods via taxes. Not at all the same thing!

In terms of is there a right to strike, well anyone can quit or refuse to work whenever they want. And they can even organize their coworkers to quit en masse. That's not in dispute. The dispute is whether the company can fire them for not working. Saying that a worker has a "right" to strike is a very oblique way of saying that a company does not have a right to fire a worker that doesn't show up to work.

Now, it's not at all clear why the government, especially critical agencies in the government that provide security for the nation, shouldn't have this right.

Imagine if a fireman said they wouldn't put out a fire unless you paid him more. Wouldn't a normal person respond by saying "Why did you agree to take the job? Why not quit and let someone else, who is willing to do the job, do it? Why hold me hostage?" Or a policeman going on strike and refusing to respond to a call until the citizens of the town voted to increase police pay. Well the money that pays government workers is money from citizens, not some economic profit created by the production process, so demanding more of this money and preventing the agencies from operating until more is voted by the legislature is a pretty unpopular stance except in the most pro-union sliver of the electorate.

Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by ygjb on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:12AM (#26260212)
> Many government positions do not give you a right to strike.

That may be true in other countries. In Canada, our Federal government employees are part of a union that comprises 200,000 employees.

The rest of what you wrote is a very American perspective on public service, unions, and payroll structures that is almost entirely irrelevant to a discussion of Canadian government agencies.

As for your last paragraph, it's easy to imagine firefighters and police officers going on strike, because they do (at least here). So do our bus drivers and other critical employees; it's just done in a way that affects people, but with plans in place to reduce impacts to safety.

Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by dhx on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:00AM (#26261042)
According to Wikipedia the annual budget per employee at CSE calculates to be approximately USD$220,000/employee, which would be far less than the cost of hiring a typical NSA contractor[1]. This of course assumes that CSE doesn't have any other expenses (buying hardware, paying electricity bills)!

If CSE employees don't find the salary competitive now, you can almost be certain that 9/10 people working there in a few years time will be on much higher contractor rates.

[1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-average-defense-depart... (these figures are extremely conservative as they're from 2015, not specific to high demand ICT jobs, and also without the scarcity in the job market that a TS/SCI clearance creates)

Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by iancmceachern on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:20AM (#26260546)
They do all over the world, France for example recently.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by BiteCode_dev on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:58AM (#26260723)
Except militaries. Also, firefighters and nurses seem to do fake strikes, protesting but doing their job anyway.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by hnick on Thursday February 25, 2021 @07:10AM (#26262027)
In some locations bus drivers go "on strike" by refusing to take fares for a set period of time. The service is provided, they are paid their usual salary, but magically it seems no one caught the bus that day when we look at the figures!

Work to rule is another way to do it. I personally find the concept hilarious.

Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by refurb on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:12AM (#26260785)
They do in the US as well with a few exceptions.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by rsj_hn on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:50AM (#26260987)
The Federal Service Labor Management Relations Act of 1978 makes it illegal for Federal govt employees to strike and does not provide any protections for state or local employees to strike:

"Government employees — state, local, and federal — do not have a right to strike under the federal law."(1)

For local government, it would depend on which state you are in. 8 states do provide some rights to their state and local employees to strike, 42 states do not.(1)

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(1) See https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/9/20/20873867/w...

Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by rishabhd on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @11:42PM (#26259783)
Probably an unpopular opinion, but doesn't it exposes workers to OPSEC issues? I mean, if it is a strike, there must be a way to identify how is it being organized/ co-ordinated via some social media/ messaging apps leaving them wide open for other nation state actors to identify who-n-who of CSE. That is assuming CSE employees are not profiled actively before this.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by ygjb on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:34AM (#26260330)
Sure maybe, but then again, from the article:

The Public Service Alliance of Canada represents 2,400 employees working in cryptography, applied mathematics, advanced language analysis and cybersecurity at the Communications Security Establishment (CSE).

I think some of those 2,400 union dues paying members might have taken steps to make sure they were doing things in a way that is reasonably secure... I do wonder how many other unions have that many folks able to help out.

Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by MattGaiser on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @11:55PM (#26259851)
They have over 100 employees listed on LinkedIn. I am not sure employment there is all that secret.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by viraptor on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:43AM (#26260084)
The people who need to stay secret are likely paid enough. Most of the standard workers don't need to be secret. You can find them in presentations online, and other places.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by sneak on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @11:57PM (#26259863)
Yes, it seems that from a logically consistent point of view, anyone in the military (including military intelligence) striking should probably be accurately classified as treason.

People in the military aren't "free", by the rules of the military, in the way that private citizens are - the military is a dictatorship, and disobeying is, under their rules, a crime.

I, too, was surprised that this is a thing that can happen.

Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by nonameiguess on Thursday February 25, 2021 @06:08AM (#26261746)
I've been both a uniformed soldier and a contractor, never an agency civilian but work with plenty of them, and they are not "in the military" in the sense you mean here. They work for the military, as do I as a contractor, but we're not subject to UCMJ. If you're subject to UCMJ, then yes, your freedoms are severely curtailed and you do not enjoy the benefits of the Constitution afforded to civilians. You can be detained against your will by your commander. You are absolutely not allowed freedom of speech or freedom of movement. You can't quit the job. You can be fired for being fat. None of that applies to civilians, even DoD and IC agency civilians. If a civilian doesn't do what their manager asks, they can be fired. If a soldier doesn't do what their commander asks, they can be arrested. Huge difference between working for the military and being "in" the military.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by MattGaiser on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:00AM (#26259876)
CSE is solidly civilian.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by sneak on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:03AM (#26259890)
Interesting. Military intelligence outside of the military? That's... unexpected.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by admax88q on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:35AM (#26260043)
The CIA and NSA are also civilian.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by sneak on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:18AM (#26260809)
The head of the NSA is a general in the US army.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by syshum on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:54AM (#26260138)
the NSA is "civilian" in name only, to get around that pesky constitution that the government hates soo much.

the NSA is a division of the DoD, it is based on a Military Base, and it has many military officers in high ranking positions

if it acts like a duck, talks likes a Duck, calling it s something else does not make it anything other than a duck, this NSA for all practical purpose is part of the military.

They say it is military when they need it to be, and civilian when they need it to be based on what oversight and regulations, and constitutional limits they are trying to get around at any given time

Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by souprock on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:38AM (#26260919)
Do fresh NSA recruits have to go in a gas chamber, keep their bunk clean, get a super-short haircut, eat what is served, and do lots of push-ups?

I think "not military" fits pretty well.

Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by hoseja on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:49AM (#26260982)
That is a "featherless biped"-level definition of military.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by admax88q on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:24AM (#26260266)
Its still civilian in the way that matters for this discussion in that its not a crime for an NSA employee to disobey an order.
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by syshum on Thursday February 25, 2021 @06:55AM (#26261952)
Edward Snowden would like to have a word with you
Re:Hundreds of workers at cybersecurity agency vote to strike by admax88q on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:58PM (#26267465)
Are you purposefully misunderstanding?

Did Snowden "not follow an order" or did he do something explicitly already illegal according to civilian law.

Also note that if captured he's not going to face a court martial, he's going to face the normal civilian legal system.