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Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by linuxftw on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @09:36AM (#26250219)
Climate change exists. It has always existed. Most of the northern hemisphere used to be covered with ice. Prior to that, it wasn't covered with ice.

Is it a serious problem? No. Is the Earth getting warmer because of human activity? Probably not.

Things that are a serious problem: Pollution, pesticides, increasing water scarcity due to population growth in (already) arid areas, loss of biodiversity due to a number of things, the corporate take over of government and society, over criminalization of society with unjust laws, endless wars where western nations kill the inhabitants of non-western nations.

There's much to be concerned about. Climate change is last on the list.

Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by adrianN on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @09:49AM (#26250391)
> Is the Earth getting warmer because of human activity? Probably not

This is just wrong. You are free to argue that 3° warming is no big deal, like one of your sibling comments does, but saying that humans are not responsible for climate change is factually wrong.

Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by linuxftw on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:24AM (#26250827)
I can say what every I want, because I believe (anthropogenic warming) climate science is a highly politicized pile of nonsense.
Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by adrianN on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @12:58PM (#26253200)
You can of course continue to believe whatever you like. You will most likely just have a harder time convincing other people of your beliefs if they are in contradiction with reality.
Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by linuxftw on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @01:30PM (#26253642)
By reality, do you mean how the Earth was already warming, as evidenced by the fact that North America is no longer under miles of ice? Or is there a different reality where that warming magically stopped?
Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by tzs on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @02:09PM (#26254178)
I'm not him, but my answers would be...

The reality that most of the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere compared to pre-industrial levels is due to humans. We know this because different CO2 sources have different carbon isotope ratios.

The reality that increased CO2 results in increased warming. We know this from various experiments and direct measurements.

The reality were we have satellites that can measure the incoming and outgoing solar energy and see that the Earth is gaining energy.

Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by covidthrow on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @03:38PM (#26255503)
I don't know that many dispute the specific data you reference. I think the oppositional perspective is something along the lines of:

We have good measurements of various recent phenomena.

We have bad, inferred, or proxy data of various past phenomena.

We have limited data on cyclic global and extraterrestrial phenomena.

We mash these data into computer simulations of the earth, hit "run", and observe the result.

Herein lies the problem: we're feeding good, not so good, and incomplete data into an incomplete model of a chaotic system the size of the entire planet and projecting this data many years into the future to a result of impressively narrow margins.

We frequently update these models as we learn about new phenomena and interactions. We refine the data we input as we learn to better calibrate or infer its correctness. We run the simulation again and observe the results.

While the desire to improve our methods in the face of new information is a very scientific process, I think the objection is that there is a combination of a tremendous amount of hubris to trust such a large model of such a chaotic system, as well as an incentive structure that is tremendously vulnerable to abuse or corruption.

Of course it is absolutely scientific to be skeptical; that is, after all, a crucial component of the scientific process. That skepticism of this particular process exists is not only to be expected, but should also welcomed.

However, there is exceedingly little dissent within the scientific community. This alone should raise skepticism.

Now, I'm not talking about dissent about CO2's thermal properties or ways in which we measure things. Obviously these are testable, so we can maintain a certain level of confidence in their methods or results.

The global models—and actual, physical global system—are not testable. We cannot "try a little of this and a little of that" to pull apart how the emergent sum of all the parts affect this great chaotic system.

So we have a majority of the scientific community vociferously defending our projections—mostly because of unrelated but adjacent social reasons—and very few pushing the narrative that yes, in fact this is a very brittle process that ultimately thrives on faith.

At least, this is how I imagine a reasoned skeptic may form the justification for their skepticism...

Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by linuxftw on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @04:15PM (#26256065)
We don't know that increased CO2 results in increased temperature. The temperature was already increasing long before human-based CO2 was increasing.

There is evidence in the geological record that CO2 increases lagged temperature increases. There is evidence in the geological record that CO2 levels, and temperatures, were much higher than they are today.

Water vapor and the sun are the two biggest inputs into the greenhouse effect on Earth, not CO2. CO2 is infinitesimal by comparison.

Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by sep_field on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:34AM (#26250965)
Go ahead, put those fingers in your ears. You'll be starving soon enough along with the rest of us.

You might want to check the news. The arctic has melted, temperatures have topped 100 degrees. The sea ice, where still present, is less than an inch thick. Commercial shipping is happening in winter without the aid of icebreaking ships. The Polar Vortex has gotten completely destabilized, sending the Jet Stream careening deep into southern latitudes (which is why Texas froze).

This is ecological doom knocking at our door. There are multiple, overlapping positive feedback loops occurring. You really should be paying attention and not just smugly pretending that you can "own the libs".

Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by sep_field on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @09:42AM (#26250302)
Willful blindness packaged as cleverness won't save you. Climate models show that we only have about 10-15 more years before complete climate collapse. Welcome to the anthropocene.
Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by derg on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:14AM (#26250712)
> Climate models show that we only have about 10-15 more years before complete climate collapse.

and here i am, waking up every day putting on my stupid pants and my stupid hoodie and meandering to my stupid laptop to make stupid little websites.

like normally i'm just going with the flow with this knowledge that the future is gonna suck but somedays like today it hits harder than it usually does when i see it written out this way

Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by sep_field on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:19AM (#26250770)
Please try and enjoy the Earth's treasures while you still can. She offers them with Her love.
Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by linuxftw on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:33AM (#26250942)
Don't fret. 'Scientists' (politicians that pretend to be scientists?) have been making this 'climate emergency' claim for generations now. It's all click-bait fearmongering.
Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by derg on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:44AM (#26251098)
oh you're one of those climate deniers. nothing you say is valid or worth listening to.
Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by linuxftw on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:53AM (#26251229)
If I was losing the argument, I'd say something similar.
Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by Karunamon on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:15AM (#26250719)
At the risk of excessive snark, are those the same models that predicted the ice caps melting in the 90s? Speaking purely historically, climate models and scientists predicting global catastrophe has happened multiple times, actual global catastrophe has not.

Were this issue not highly politicized, I could openly question the implications of kind of failures without qualification :/

[dead]
Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by Karunamon on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:33AM (#26250938)
See, that last insult is exactly what I was hoping to avoid. "Hey, this particular field of endeavor has a poor track record of making bad predictions of doom" is a verifiable fact, and you just turned it into partisan shit-flinging.

Nobody's attempting to own anyone here, but thanks for lowering the standard of discourse substantially.

>Temperatures have topped 100 at the North Pole

No they have not. The highest temperature ever recorded was 56. Cite your sources.

sep_field silently edited their post to change "North Pole" to "the arctic".

Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by Cd00d on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @11:42AM (#26252013)
This is annoying bickering, made only worse by the fact that you're both quoting temperatures without sources or units.
Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by linuxftw on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @10:40AM (#26251036)
Here's some news: The arctic melting was already projected with or without human interference. At best, we marginally sped up the process.

> The Polar Vortex has gotten completely destabilized

Yes, every whether phenomenon is now caused by global warming, as if Texas has never seen ice.

Re:Cloud-Making Aerosol Could Devastate Polar Sea Ice by sep_field on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @11:25AM (#26251716)
https://therightsofnature.org/universal-declaration/

How Jet Stream Collapse will Cause Mass Starvation Explained by Dr. Peter Wadhams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKilc_oMbrg&feature=yout...

Here are four countries that have given nature the same legal rights as humans. #BeLikeThem. Solutions are everywhere. Let's implement them and protect people and the planet. #ActOnClimate #nature #forests

https://twitter.com/MikeHudema/status/1361531384351891456