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Re:The Process Is Not the Product. The New Agile Anti-Manifesto by Nursie on Saturday February 20, 2021 @08:04AM (#26203816)
Eh, jira can be fine so long as you keep it simple and just use it to track pieces of work in progress, bugs etc.

By the time you're hiring a jira specialist and talking about workflows and restricted state transitions, something has probably gone very wrong though.

Also worth remembering, as we rail against this stuff - good people don't need to be encumbered by that much process to produce good things, especially in small groups. But not everyone is that good, and groups don't always stay small. Not that that means that adding process is always right, but it is another factor to keep in mind.

Re:The Process Is Not the Product. The New Agile Anti-Manifesto by lumost on Saturday February 20, 2021 @08:42AM (#26204027)
The biggest culprit I've seen for this kind of bloat is reporting requirements. Senior leadership is often perceived as wanting to see burndown charts and other numerical progress indicators. These reports are then presented to leadership, and then leadership reacts to seeing the burndown as flat, have a giant spike at the end, or go the opposite direction. Good leadership will of course ask for corrective actions, as clearly one of their teams is struggling, and then the team/manager will come up with more complex workflows to help clarify progress.

In practice I've found a 2-3 sentence update for each project on what's been achieved for any given project on the team and what's happening next is more than sufficient. Bonus points for capturing the highlights and action items from the retro. You'll still get questions/kudos for progress, but its easier to discuss the root causes without reaching for the "process change" tool.

Re:The Process Is Not the Product. The New Agile Anti-Manifesto by nyulmalac on Saturday February 20, 2021 @09:23AM (#26204267)
I agree with your approach.

I always try to avoid to give such KPI toward management. They fall in love with it and then it leads to just KPI limbo... It can be faked, or manipulated to obfuscate reality...

Another funny story : Once our department head was really angry because we wanted to open our Jira board inside the company. :D He afraid of that others would see that not everything is awesome... And it will have negative consequences. Ok this fear is also strengthened by the clueless upper management who has no idea how sw dev is done...

Re:The Process Is Not the Product. The New Agile Anti-Manifesto by nyulmalac on Saturday February 20, 2021 @09:09AM (#26204171)
Haha thanks for this comment, this reminds me to that Jira madness I have seen at one group I worked with. (Classical non-sw company). The management have read books about how the software should be developed, designed a nice process, and created a complicated workflow, with numerous different kind of statuses and so on. All this for internal tool development... I was laughing inside. So what happened? The in-progress - review - test (and what else where there I can’t recall) was completed by the developer in a few seconds. :D And after 3 year and some management change, they improved significantly by reduced workflow. To be honest I am proud of them.

In my experience enforcing complicated processes only improves the creativity how to avoid them... Don’t missunderstand me, I’m not against processes, but I believe in keep it simple and stupid.

Re:The Process Is Not the Product. The New Agile Anti-Manifesto by SideburnsOfDoom on Saturday February 20, 2021 @08:58AM (#26204105)
> Eh, jira can be fine

It can, but it (almost always) isn't. Previous discussion:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25590846