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Re:Statement on New York Times Article by nxc18 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @01:47AM (#26130229)
I recently dropped my NYT sub; jetbrains nonsense was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I know it's a meme to bring up Gell-mann amnesia here, but I will raise it as a basic test for quality in journalism.

When NYT writes about something I know about, I almost always have serious problems with it. Jetbrains in particular. And honestly some of the writing is so bad that even without knowing about the subject, I can tell it is crap, like the article about the SlateStarCodex. I had never read it before that post, but had heard it mentioned in passing. Also, NYT Opinion is Hannity/Shapiro level crap and should be dumped. Stick to the facts please.

On the other hand, The Economist has consistently impressed me; I read/listen with a critical ear and they do a wonderful job even with very niche topics. I've worked on some AR tech and they had a special report that just really nailed it and got into the weeds. Every time I thought "but they didn't mention..." they would mention or clarify a paragraph later.

Economist has a liberal viewpoint and they're not shy about it. I prefer that approach and accept that I disagree with the conclusions/advice from time to time, but the facts are right and error corrections are almost always very minor in nature.

There is good journalism out there, just maybe not from NYT. Please don't give up hope.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by lasagnaphil on Sunday February 14, 2021 @02:10AM (#26130319)
Yeah, the Jetbrains article (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/russia-cyber-...) was just too over-the-top conspiracy fluff. It’s sad to see some liberals critiquing QAnon and then immediately eating any kind of Russian conspiracy shit without any doubt.
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by sjg007 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:57AM (#26132879)
It's not really. SolarWind uses a JetBrains component as a critical piece of infrastructure in the government which may have basically been built by Russia. Now maybe everything is above board but JetBrains does employ developers in Russia and was originally a Russian company. We don't run Kaspersky in the government either.

More to the point this should never have happened.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by kodah on Sunday February 14, 2021 @01:18PM (#26134660)
JetBrains was started in the Czech Republic [0] by three Russians. The same people who started it no longer run it.

Calling it a "Russian" company would be totally inaccurate. The hack that I saw cited, though I believe it was an unidentified source, was one that was injected at compile time. That would be very difficult to notice for any programmer.

So, here's my question:

Why did you refer to them as "Russian" when it's obviously not true?

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBrains

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by sjg007 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @01:42PM (#26134892)
The CEO operates from St. Petersburg. I mean check his Twitter. They also have three dev offices in Russia.

"Among its customers is SolarWinds, JetBrains Chief Executive Maxim Shafirov said from St. Petersburg, Russia, where JetBrains has offices."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-cyber-jetbrains/fb...

I mean everything might be above board but it's probably bad or lax US policy and/or regulations that Solarwinds was deployed through out the government.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by kodah on Sunday February 14, 2021 @03:47PM (#26136117)
Yeah, none of that is accurate to the phrasing of "a Russian company" as a rhetorical device. This kind of quasi-hyperbole about Russians is also getting old. Russia has been an ideological enemy for a long time, maybe even as long as time. I've never second guessed the motivations of business owners and citizens from Russia the way certain crowds do. That's pretty tantamount to something dubious.

Does the government need to be scrupulous in whatever open and closed source software it chooses to vend? Yes. Do we need to be chiding about the motivations of every day Russians as one of our first order investigations? Probably not.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by sjg007 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @04:51PM (#26136607)
Yet you clearly second guess and misunderstand my intentions. The real problem is the threat vector. Where is it is easier for intelligence services to operate?
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by kodah on Sunday February 14, 2021 @06:38PM (#26137382)
> Yet you clearly second guess and misunderstand my intentions

I can only go off of what you put in plaintext.

> The real problem is the threat vector

So, explain to me the threat vector. If we have a threat vector that is substantiated by, "is Russian" then I think we have a problem. If we have a threat vector of, "Government vets first order software dependencies, but not the second order and soft dependencies of software vendors" then we have something more akin to analysis.

It took Kaspersky being affiliated with, cooperating (and serving) the FSB in order for it to be banned, not because it was established by Russians.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by sjg007 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:38PM (#26137714)
I am not going to engage further with moved goalposts. It’s clear what the threat vectors are: Russian intelligence and a lack of due diligence.
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by kodah on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:06PM (#26138261)
I wasn't trying to move goal posts. Admittedly I might be sensitive to all the question of anything affiliated with Russia is now a conspiracy style thinking that has come from certain crowds. If I unfairly lumped you in with these folks, then I apologize.

> Russian intelligence

Someone will need to prove that there is a link between JetBrains as a company and Russian intel (aka the FSB) just as what happened with Kaspersky. I doubt that this is the case. It could certainly be a rogue employee, but that's a good amount of speculation. We've seen that the FSB has no issue hacking into companies and organizations without a mole.

> and a lack of due diligence.

I described the attack. What due diligence protects against something that injects itself during compile time and only triggers on specific events?

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by sjg007 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:40PM (#26138792)
The risk here is that Jetbrains has significant operations in Russia. It is likely a lot easier to get an FSB agent hired into a Russian office. And in fact the Russian government can just order and enforce cooperation. The USA does this all the time and every operation is classified. I would not expect anything less from Russia or China. The companies registration in the Czech Republic (or anywhere) does not prevent this.

Kasperkey is even more obvious because the founder was involved with the KGB even before the 2017 ban. It should never have been used. Now maybe Kasperkey's affiliation is akin to a "communist youth party" card and not necessarily a genuine affiliation but the point is that you can't trust and then verify in these situations. You have to assume that everyone is hostile unless proven safe.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by kodah on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @08:18PM (#26161378)
> the point is that you can't trust and then verify in these situations. You have to assume that everyone is hostile unless proven safe.

Are you getting this from somewhere or are you explaining how you perceive the standards?

The laws I'm familiar with generally have to do with pretty specific criteria for delivering software that touches specific types/classifications of data. None of that would've caught how the JetBrains software was allegedly used to exploit the SolarWinds product. This was some pretty sophisticated stuff.

Re:Statement on New York Times Article by drdeca on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:02AM (#26131657)
I wonder if anyone has done a kind of scientific/statistical study of the whole gell-man amnesia idea?
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by Smaug123 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:46AM (#26132340)
Could you discuss in a bit more detail what you might want from such a study? My first guess was simply that you want a newspaper to be fact-checked from beginning to end.
Re:Statement on New York Times Article by drdeca on Sunday February 14, 2021 @04:09PM (#26136287)
I guess I was thinking, get a random sample of newspaper issues from each of a number of newspapers, and for each article in each of them, get a subject matter expert (or, not necessarily an expert, but someone knowledgeable in the field), and give a random ordering of (a selection of) the articles in the issue, and have them read them in that order, reviewing how accurate they think the information is before going on to the next one, And then evaluate whether, if they thought any inaccuracies they found in the article about the topic that they have a good understanding of, whether that influences the accuracy they estimate of the later articles.

Or something like that.

Maybe have them answer some other questions about the articles other than just accuracy, such as quality of writing, in order to be less likely to cause them to re-consider how they are estimating accuracy?

And I suppose by “accuracy” I mean to also include “not misleading”, in addition to just “not false”.