News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by api on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:22AM (#26103385)
If laptops are following phones and tablets into ARM it means x64 is most likely to survive on large workstations, servers, HPC, and in data centers. It makes a ton of sense for AMD and Intel to prioritize Linux and make sure their support is first class.
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by bee_rider on Thursday February 11, 2021 @11:58AM (#26103961)
In HPC the situation seems a little weird. Fundamentally, lots of HPC workloads should scale pretty well to lots of little ARM cores. If anything the x86 advantage is more that it is just a conservative field full of scientists and engineers, who are happy with their old math libraries, which grew up on x86 and are heavily tuned for the environment.

If I were AMD or Intel, I'd keep investing in HPC, but be terrified that my lead there was just one good ARM BLAS library away from evaporating.

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by my123 on Thursday February 11, 2021 @12:07PM (#26104119)
Fujitsu A64fx already exists, the threat is quite near. Arm on the server market is quite interesting too (Graviton2 and Ampere Altra today).

And those are big cores. For a ton of little cores, looks less clear-cut for me because of the communication overhead. (could work out though, but won't be exactly easy).

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by bee_rider on Thursday February 11, 2021 @12:33PM (#26104507)
I constantly forget how good Graviton2 is.

E: A64FX seems like a really cool chip, but it sure is much easier to get time on AWS than Fugaku. :)

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by pimeys on Thursday February 11, 2021 @12:28PM (#26104424)
Does any of these ARM systems work with a mainline kernel, or do they need some old custom kernel with binary blobs?
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by my123 on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:03PM (#26104942)
All server-class Arm hardware works with UEFI + ACPI, as such using regular OS images.

(mandated by Arm ServerReady SR/SBSA, you are not allowed to ship Device Tree there)

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by pimeys on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:50PM (#26105555)
Could it be possible we get this too in the workstation and laptop ecosystems?
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by my123 on Thursday February 11, 2021 @02:53PM (#26106272)
Windows on Arm64 machines are all UEFI + ACPI too. :-)

(even for 32-bit Windows on Arm, back in the Windows RT times, this was the case. It's a shame that Microsoft decided to lock those down back then)

On more affordable Arm machines, Honeycomb LX2K has an official UEFI firmware (with ACPI) and NVIDIA's Jetson AGX Xavier has an official (but experimental) UEFI+ACPI option.

Those aren't complete yet in mainline when using ACPI. For the LX2K, onboard networking currently doesn't work when using mainline kernels. And for the AGX Xavier, you lose PCIe (until the quirk to support it there is merged, or the ECAM through PSCI patchset) and integrated GPU support.

When using a Windows on Arm laptop, most Qualcomm drivers only have device tree bindings, not ACPI at least at this point. As such, you might need to load a device tree at boot for a more complete experience. (you can look at repos on https://github.com/aarch64-laptops if you have one)

For SBCs, forget about almost anything not named "Raspberry Pi", for which... a third-party UEFI + ACPI firmware is available at https://rpi4-uefi.dev, which allowed the original RPi4 to be certified as SystemReady ES.

A lot of the things that actually drive making people implement UEFI + ACPI is that Windows, RHEL and VMWare ESXi require UEFI + ACPI to boot on 64-bit Arm.

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by linux4kix on Friday February 12, 2021 @03:48AM (#26111773)
Don't forget about our Marvell series of boards :) While HoneyComb is our flagship for SystemsReady ES certification, We will also have our Armada 8040 and CN913x based products that will also be fully supported UEFI + ACPI systems.
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by fh973 on Thursday February 11, 2021 @02:10PM (#26105789)
Which distro would you recommend for ARM servers?
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by my123 on Thursday February 11, 2021 @02:55PM (#26106292)
For my servers, I use Ubuntu so far. For more workstation/desktop machines, I use Fedora instead.
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by qbasic_forever on Thursday February 11, 2021 @03:28PM (#26106670)
Yes, the kernel has great support for ARM. Distros that need to package up the kernel, tweak the bootloader, deal with peripherals, etc.... less so on great support. ARM is a bit of the wild west with SoCs defining all kinds of esoteric and exotic hardware configs managed by the kernel's device tree infrastructure instead of a typical BIOS. If you're dealing with server workloads it matters much less (and they probably support UEFI) so stick with a distro that has good support (Ubuntu, Fedora, etc.). If you're dealing with ARM hardware directly like little SBC boards, start getting comfortable rolling your own device tree, bootloader config, etc. as you're probably going to need it. In all cases though the stock mainline kernel is fine to use.
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by jabl on Thursday February 11, 2021 @02:00PM (#26105664)
If anything, I would argue HPC is one of the more flexible markets. A lot of HPC software is distributed in source form, so recompiling for a different architecture is seldom a big deal. As long as the system provides BLAS and MPI libraries, and good bang/buck, you're good.
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by alberth on Thursday February 11, 2021 @12:07PM (#26104121)
Just like how x86 disrupted the mainframe market decades ago and ushered in: client/server, desktops, laptops ... I feel ARM is doing the same to x86.

It can see a future where x86 is the modern equivalent of a “mainframe”

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by pimeys on Thursday February 11, 2021 @12:42PM (#26104639)
It's kind of weird, but I don't really see so much gain from getting an ARM compared to x86. All I see is closed hardware, locked bootloaders and non-free operating systems in the future.

I want to be wrong though...

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by api on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:39PM (#26105414)
There's nothing that requires closed boot loaders and locked OSes on ARM, nor is there anything preventing the same on X64. Most X64 chips have embedded security processors that can and sometimes are used to do just that, while the Raspberry Pi and countless other ARM boards are fairly open.

The new M1 Mac is fairly open too in that you can boot non-MacOS OSes on it. It differs from the iPhone and iPad in this way as the Mac is made for a different market niche.

The best way to fight closed devices is to not buy them regardless of their CPU ISA.

ARM is just a different ISA with somewhat superior efficiency characteristics due to fixed length easier to decode instruction encoding. That's about it.

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by marcodiego on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:49PM (#26105536)
Raspberry pi needs proprietary blob to boot. It is not "fairly open".
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by api on Thursday February 11, 2021 @03:16PM (#26106537)
ARM will definitely need a BIOS interface standard before it sees big traction in servers, desktops, and cloud. There's apparently some work going on here. As it stands there just hasn't been a big motive to create such a standard because ARM has mostly been used on embedded and mobile devices that ship with canned images anyway.
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by The_Colonel on Thursday February 11, 2021 @02:36PM (#26106057)
The advantage of ARM fixed length decoder is probably largely irrelevant in laptop/desktop segment. Memory model has probably much bigger effect although that's not exactly clear yet either.

But overall people assign too much weight to ISA, especially in case of M1 and forget other aspects of the CPU design.

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by api on Thursday February 11, 2021 @03:09PM (#26106452)
The fixed length encoder means more in those segments.

X64 decoders are really complex. I've heard 5% of the die. Unlike other parts like the ALU, SSE/AVX, AES engines, etc., the decoder is almost 100% "hot" all the time. This adds significant energy overhead vs. a simpler decoder.

The other problem is that it's hard to decode lots of X64 instructions at once without this energy cost ballooning. Apparently 4X decode is kind of a magic number. Intel cranked it to 6X in Ice Lake and newer with some magic, but beyond 6X is gonna be hard.

The Apple M1 has 8X decode, meaning that it can fully saturate 8 execution units for a lot of instruction level parallelism. Nothing in ARM makes it that hard to go higher. If there's a performance advantage to it we will see 12X, 16X, or even higher decode pipelines.

Another big win for ARM is looser memory semantics, allowing for more memory write reordering and more efficient cache designs.

Overall ARM is just easier to optimize than X64. X86/X64 is only fast because vast amounts of money has been spent optimizing these designs. If the same amount were spent optimizing ARM, we'd be way ahead of where we are now.

P.S. The only area where X64 still really shines is its big complex vector units, but these massive vector instruction sets are to some extent a hack to get around the difficulty of decoding X64 instructions. Think of huge SSE/AVX instructions as big macros. I'm sure ARM will get 256-bit and maybe even 512-bit vector extensions at some point, at which point the gap will shrink a lot in this area too.

P.P.S. SMT / hyperthreading is a hack to get around the difficulty decoding lots of instruction in parallel. It's a way to keep a big parallel core busier. It comes with its own overhead though, which increases power consumption, and is a security minefield. Are there even any SMT ARM cores? It's just not as big of a win when you can add more decode width easily.

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by wahern on Friday February 12, 2021 @02:25AM (#26111406)
Isn't Power also fixed-length? Why isn't POWER9 killing it?

EDIT: To answer my first question, it was 32-bit fixed-length. The ISA for POWER10 additionally supports aligned prefixed 64-bit instructions. See section 1.6 in https://wiki.raptorcs.com/w/images/f/f5/PowerISA_public.v3.1...

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by qbasic_forever on Thursday February 11, 2021 @02:53PM (#26106275)
Well I see in my testing and use 20% more performance and 30% _less_ cost with AWS Graviton 2 ARM instances vs x86. The cost savings can be enormous. The bottom line of your company doesn't really care about bootloaders and OS 'freedom'.
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by pimeys on Thursday February 11, 2021 @02:58PM (#26106325)
I was thinking more of my workstation. If I lose access to free software, I might as well just leave the whole industry and stop using technology.

It is kind of important for me I do not have to use closed source blobs or operating systems. And I think I'm not the only one.

Btw, I've yet to see a Graviton instance that compiles our Rust project faster than my 3090x workstation. Maybe there is, but it costs a fortune. And what Amazon does here is it just kicks out all competition who cannot build their own CPUs. Then they can ramp up the prices.

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by qbasic_forever on Thursday February 11, 2021 @03:36PM (#26106766)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm with you on not enjoying loss of access to my hardware and getting further and further away from the metal. But also, we gotta make a living and pay the bills... it's a competitive disadvantage with online services to be using more expensive to run instances.

In my experience and testing Rust lang is lagging a bit with ARM support. It's not that the language doesn't have good support (it does, it's great and very easy to cross compile), it's that the ecosystem around rust is _very_ x86 focused. Like I saw a simple JSON parsing library decided it would be cool to add SSE and SIMD support and now it doesn't work well on ARM (which has a totally different set of SIMD extensions). I have a strong suspicion your rust projects depend on libs with similar issues--but be ready because once those libs support similar optimizations for ARM, it's going to be super fast.

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by marcodiego on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:47PM (#26105519)
Arent graviton and ampere promises that ARM can compete with x86 on servers too?
Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by qbasic_forever on Thursday February 11, 2021 @02:22PM (#26105908)
Yep, it's flying under everyone's radar right now too. In my experience Graviton 2 instances are ~20% faster and 30% _cheaper_ than the best x86 instances for typical web workloads (transform some templates, talk to a DB, do IO bound network work, etc.). It's an amazing way for nimble little SaaS startups to pluck away customers from giants by offering much cheaper prices. The little guys that build up ARM expertise are going to be great exits and pickups for the larger fish in the ecosystem too (because if your platform is an old thing with a lot of technical debt, moving it to ARM is not trivial and the expertise to do it is in wild demand).

If you're working on online services and NOT looking at or using ARM servers right now--you are in big trouble and already too late to the game.

Re:AMD Is Currently Hiring More Linux Engineers by CodesInChaos on Friday February 12, 2021 @06:45AM (#26112639)
What are the challenges with porting to ARM, besides third party code which doesn't support it?

I only know about unaligned reads and the weaker memory model, but both of them are already undefined behaviour in C/C++/Rust.