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Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by Permit on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @09:56PM (#26097737)
How many transactions/day is Lightning handling? I recall this same discussion in late 2017. Have they managed to successfully get people using it yet?
Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by anonisko on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @10:41PM (#26098020)
You can't directly measure the number of transactions happening on lightning network unless every non leaf node publishes it's numbers, and even then you'd have to trust they're telling you the truth.

And it's even more complicated than that, because you'd have to take the data from every node, and reconstruct complete paths to identify a single transaction.

And yes, I personally use the Strike app + Fold app to collect satoshi rewards by buying gift cards for shopping. Strike also has a beta app that uses lightning as the rails for global p2p transfers, e.g. you can instantly send USD to EUR. https://twitter.com/JackMallers/status/1346867753253220356

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by helen___keller on Thursday February 11, 2021 @09:43AM (#26101928)
> Have they managed to successfully get people using it yet?

I was trying to figure out the same thing a month back[0], but most of the responses I got boiled down to "you're asking the wrong question". It's hard to wade through the crowd of "it's just digital gold", but the best response I got[1] is that it works decently for places that accept it, but there are hiccups, usually around liquidity.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25675472

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25676779

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by arcticbull on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @10:07PM (#26097813)
Roughly zero, and no. [1]

[1] https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by 3np on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @10:23PM (#26097913)
There is no number there on the number of transactions, simply because it’s impossible to measure. It’s only possible to see the lightning transactions flowing through your own node.

Each channel accommodates theoretically infinite amount of transaction.

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by ashtonkem on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @10:39PM (#26098008)
More knowable question: who actually uses the lightning network to accept payment for goods and services?
Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by anonisko on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @10:48PM (#26098046)
https://foldapp.com/

https://store.blockstream.com/

https://acceptlightning.com/list.html

Several major exchanges have announced that they are implementing LN support. Still very early days.

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by ashtonkem on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @11:29PM (#26098270)
Looking at that list, most of those are clearly crypto enthusiasts. I don't think "HODL Monkey" is a good indicator of where the market is going; ditto with exchanges.

As always, call me when I can buy a latte with it.

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by 3np on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:12AM (#26098767)
FWIW I have been buying lattes for bitcoin (a couple of which with lightning) in multiple countries since ~2012
Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by anonisko on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @11:42PM (#26098323)
This shouldn't be surprising. The early adopters of a finicky new technology are always going to be enthusiasts.

You can buy a Starbucks gift card on fold app using LN and currently get 3% back in sats.

But seriously, why would anyone spend a ton of effort right now integrating a coffee shop directly with LN in the first world? Traditional payment systems work fine. Bitcoin was never primarily concerned with replacing Visa. Think bigger.

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by arcticbull on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:02AM (#26098721)
Is someone in the third world chomping at the bit to pay $40 to open and close a single LN channel when that’s 10% of the GDP per capita of some of those countries you plan to help? Probably not. The only places you can get away wanging people with such egregious fees simply don’t need crypto.
Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by uh-quan on Thursday February 11, 2021 @01:40PM (#26105432)
> Is someone in the third world chomping at the bit to pay $40 to open and close a single LN channel when that’s 10% of the GDP per capita of some of those countries you plan to help? Probably not.

In such cases, there is no reason such users can't "enter" bitcoin through a second layer such as the Lightning Network.

Why would they do that if it isn't real bitcoin?, you might ask. Well, for one, their local, tin-pot-dictator created currencies are often worthless, meaning that even second-layer bitcoin is a far more sound and reliable currency.

And who is to say $40 for an on-chain transaction is an "egregious fee"? It turns out having access to the world's most secure, decentralized, unstoppable, set-in-stone, uncensorable, trustless, non-inflationary monetary network is a valuable thing. Maybe so much so that $40 per on-chain transaction is a bargain in the bigger picture.

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by arcticbull on Thursday February 11, 2021 @02:18PM (#26105863)
> In such cases, there is no reason such users can't "enter" bitcoin through a second layer such as the Lightning Network.

Yes there is they need a channel, which costs $20 to open and $20 to close.

> And who is to say $40 for an on-chain transaction is an "egregious fee"? It turns out having access to the world's most secure, decentralized, unstoppable, set-in-stone, uncensorable, trustless, non-inflationary monetary network is a valuable thing. Maybe so much so that $40 per on-chain transaction is a bargain in the bigger picture.

Ah you're a comedian too!

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by uh-quan on Friday February 12, 2021 @09:56AM (#26114265)
>Yes there is they need a channel, which costs $20 to open and $20 to close.

No, they don't need to open a channel via the blockchain. They can have an account with a third party, for example.

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by arcticbull on Friday February 12, 2021 @12:02PM (#26115758)
If you do that you lose 100% of the guarantees of the blockchain -- that account is centralized, permissioned and trustful. At that point they don't need the blockchain, smh.
Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by uh-quan on Friday February 12, 2021 @08:03PM (#26120503)
Although it's true you introduce some level of trust in that scenario, it's patently false that you lose all the benefits of bitcoin. A company offering accounts via Lightning would have all of the standard reasons not to cheat customers.

And again, keep in mind we are talking about access to money -- a money that cannot be debased -- for those people living in the poorest and most terribly governed areas of the world, where debasement, hyperinflation, and the utter destruction of savings is commonplace.

Even if they don't get the full benefits of on-chain bitcoin transactions, they will still be light years ahead of where they were relying on failed local currencies. A massive improvement even in the worst case scenario, helping to lift real-world folks out of poverty. This is something to applaud and cheer for, not shake your head at or mock.

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by arcticbull on Thursday February 11, 2021 @05:36PM (#26108332)
@quartus, you're right, I apologize.

I was referring to the idea that a $40 channel fee might be palatable or even negligible for folks such as those in Malawi whose GDP per capita is $400 per year.

Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by quartus on Thursday February 11, 2021 @05:29PM (#26108274)
What does calling someone a "comedian" add to the conversation?
Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by spurgu on Friday February 12, 2021 @05:24PM (#26119227)
You pay zero with the Phoenix wallet: https://phoenix.acinq.co/
Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by ashtonkem on Thursday February 11, 2021 @10:24AM (#26102404)
What does “think bigger” even mean here, aside from memes about Bitcoin prices going up? If your competitor is cheaper, more popular, more reliable, and more widely supported, aren’t you just straight up losing?
Re:Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index by arcticbull on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @10:43PM (#26098029)
Good point, thank you for the correction.