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Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by tptacek on Sunday February 07, 2021 @04:46PM (#26058507)
I don't want to recapitulate the whole very long argument here, but I believe this meme about "assault weapons" being incoherent and cosmetic is essentially propaganda. The original FAWB proposals targeted all semi-automatic rifles with detachable clips. Like you, I took the time to learn more about firearms technology and I came to the opposite conclusion you did. See this thread for my reasoning (somewhere in there, there's a back-and-forth about the Mini-14, which is a favorite Facebook meme subject).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21021388

Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by wl on Sunday February 07, 2021 @06:09PM (#26059090)
And last time you brought this up, I pointed out you mischaracterized the proposal in question. I'd correct your statement to say "The original FAWB proposals targeted all semi-automatic rifles with detachable [magazines that a future Attorney General wanted to ban]."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21811186

Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by tptacek on Sunday February 07, 2021 @06:58PM (#26059373)
As the thread shows, the intent of the original FAWB proposals was not to focus on scary-looking cosmetic features. I think my description in this thread is fair, you'd like to qualify it further, and that's fine, but I don't think we should pretend like we don't understand each other, or that there aren't sources that refute the idea that the original intention of assault weapons regulation was just stuff like barrel shrouds.
Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by wl on Sunday February 07, 2021 @07:07PM (#26059420)
The problem is that neither the proposal you linked nor the 1994 FAWB make a rational distinction between banned semi-automatic rifles with a capacity to accept a detachable magazine ("assault weapons") and ones that shouldn't be banned, with the exception of a few specific carveouts. In the proposal you link, instead of feature tests, we get the attorney general judging which guns are ok and which ones aren't.

AWBs are incoherent and irrational. The feature tests are a manifestation of that. But the lack of them doesn't fix the irrationality of the whole idea.

Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by tptacek on Sunday February 07, 2021 @07:15PM (#26059465)
I think the bill I cited is has a pretty clear and coherent definition of assault weapons: they're semi-automatic rifles that accept detachable clips of more than 10 rounds. You're fixated on the fact that the AG/SecT can designed some semi-automatic rifles with clips as "not" assault weapons, at their discretion. So what?

I don't think mandatory licensure of tactical rifles is an irrational idea at all.

Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by wl on Sunday February 07, 2021 @07:36PM (#26059554)
The ban you linked works the other way around: Such rifles are legal until the AG/SecT specifically bans them. It's the functional definition + irrelevant stuff formula I object to as irrational. If the ban you linked worked as you describe, I'd object to it as bad public policy, but I'd be hard-pressed to call it irrational.

And I'm not sure how licensure comes into this. Neither the 1994 FAWB nor the proposal you linked license the possession of "tactical rifles." They ban them with grandfathering. And for what it's worth, I don't think licensure regimes necessarily are irrational.

Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by tptacek on Sunday February 07, 2021 @07:41PM (#26059582)
The AG/SecT has the authority under this proposal to simply classify all of them as assault weapons. Not all firearms, period; there is a technical definition that carves out weapons that can't be, and, again, it's not based on cosmetic features.

I think in the 1980s an outright ban on tactical rifles could have worked. That's the context of the bill. Since then, the black rifle has become a de facto standard platform for hunting and sporting, the market has followed, also somehow a feral hog explosion, and so an outright ban would be very disruptive. My point is that bans aren't the only option, and, in 2020 (but not in the 1980s) the cost of a ban would outweigh the benefit.

I think reasonable people can have all sorts of opinions on what kind of regulations there should be around firearms, and my confidence in my own beliefs is not all that high. But I am fairly certain that thought-stopping appeals to the definitions in the FAWB (or, for that matter, to the Sturmgewehr) don't make good arguments, and can be quickly disposed of.

Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by nokcha on Sunday February 07, 2021 @05:22PM (#26058793)
>The original FAWB proposals targeted all semi-automatic rifles with detachable clips.

OK, I agree with you that such a proposal makes sense conceptually. (But I would still oppose it on the grounds that it offends the Second Amendment.) My complaint about conceptual incoherence is limited to bans that focus on things like pistol grips.

Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by ChrisLomont on Sunday February 07, 2021 @05:44PM (#26058934)
>The original FAWB proposals targeted all semi-automatic rifles with detachable clips

Yet that was not the definition used in the law.

The original FAWB (for rifles) itself defined an assault weapon as a semi-auto rifle with 2 of - folding or telescoping stock - pistol grip - bayonet mount - flash hider - grenade launcher.

This was such a ridiculous list, with about zero to do with lethality, that it was trivial to work around. No one was killing people with grenade launchers or bayonets, for example.

Targeting only detachable clips only leads to fast loaders like those used for 6-shooters, i.e., it's not much of a deterrent to quickly reloading weapons.

In practice and history, these bans seem more based on scary looking features than empirical lethality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by tptacek on Sunday February 07, 2021 @06:59PM (#26059376)
"The law" was the result of intensive lobbying by groups like the NRA and represents a capitulation from the original position of gun reformers. I don't accept that we're bound by the definitions in that law when we're discussing potential new policy. In fact, rejecting that definition of "assault weapon" is the point of my comment.
Re:NRA bankruptcy lets critics peer into gun lobby’s inner w... by ChrisLomont on Monday February 08, 2021 @08:43AM (#26064296)
> I don't accept that we're bound by the definitions in that law when we're discussing potential new policy

Here's a recent Assault Weapons Ban by Diane Feinstein, 2020, not the result of political lobbying.

It takes your statement to heart. Do you see any holes in this one being effective? I do.

>the result of intensive lobbying by groups like the NRA and represents a capitulation from the original position of gun reformers

Every bill will be the result of lobbying and ideas from competing groups, and will result in compromise. That's not such a bad thing. Not every American wants either extreme that political parties can concoct.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/66