News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why I still Lisp by agumonkey on Sunday January 31, 2021 @01:31PM (#25981210)
I've read a few times that Java and enterprise languages are so horribly tedious for the purpose of slowing down armies of monkeys to avoid catastrophic design.

ps: what kind of clojure projects do you have in mind ?

Re:Why I still Lisp by thu2111 on Monday February 01, 2021 @12:46PM (#25991053)
That's a common meme but there's not much evidence for it.

Java has the syntax it does because it's based on C++. It is verbose because (a) C++ is verbose and (b) it insists on everything being inside a class. The latter is a reasonable choice given that the underlying VM needs some unit of linkage and scope ... sort of like criticising C and C++ for requiring that everything be inside a function, but there are reasons for doing it that way.

It's true that Java's designers are very conservative, and this is partly because there are many users who appreciate that their skills don't get obsoleted all that fast (a lot of whom are in enterprise roles). But that's more of an accident of a commitment to backwards compatibility and historically long release cycles. It's not like they set out to make an 'enterprise language', they didn't. It was originally meant for the embedded TV set top box world.

Re:Why I still Lisp by agumonkey on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @07:07AM (#26000009)
I really read that big companies, for logistics reasons, prefer verbose, boilerplate-full languages because it slows down mistakes. Not only because the pace of evolution in the language is better for long term careers.
Re:Why I still Lisp by thu2111 on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @09:39AM (#26001420)
I don't think that's really true. I think it's more the case that the sort of languages that have the features large teams need have tended historically to be verbose, and some people conflated the two together. For instance lambdas made Java less verbose and there was no pushback from enterprises, which you'd have expected if they actually loved verbosity. Kotlin is also doing great in big companies and conciseness is one of its selling points.