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Re:Electric cars are coming fast – is the nation’s grid up t... by rapsey on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:42PM (#25971097)
> While true, the plus side is EVs are still a net CO2 win even when charged by dirty fuel.

Are they? Does that include the manufacturing process?

Re:Electric cars are coming fast – is the nation’s grid up t... by ants_a on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:58PM (#25971250)
Yes, but it will take a few years of driving to break even.

Example calculation: https://uploads.volkswagen-newsroom.com/system/production/up...

Re:Electric cars are coming fast – is the nation’s grid up t... by zaroth on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:51PM (#25971176)
Yes it does. Payback takes a few years depending on the CO2 intensity of the electrical supply, but you do get there even with some coal in the mix.

Here is a quite comprehensive analysis:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7.epdf

Edit: you might have better luck with this link;

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7.epdf?refer...

Re:Electric cars are coming fast – is the nation’s grid up t... by im3w1l on Saturday January 30, 2021 @01:44PM (#25971697)
I don't have access to that article but does it take into account the notion of marginal power? That any increased load is going to be disproportionally dirty?
Re:Electric cars are coming fast – is the nation’s grid up t... by philipkglass on Saturday January 30, 2021 @03:02PM (#25972444)
It's not a given that increased load is going to be disproportionally dirty. Wind farm output typically peaks at night. Wind is a great match for night time battery energy vehicle charging and it has the lowest life cycle CO2 footprint of any electricity source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse_gas_emis...

I do like your emphasis on marginal effects. As renewables and BEVs grow it will be a balancing act to pick the most marginally effective resources for emissions abatement. California may soon reach a point where an additional dollar invested in solar doesn't abate as much CO2 as the same dollar invested in transmission, storage, or wind -- even if solar has the lowest instantaneous generation cost.

Re:Electric cars are coming fast – is the nation’s grid up t... by throwawayboise on Saturday January 30, 2021 @03:41PM (#25972792)
> Wind farm output typically peaks at night.

Is this generally true, or does it depend on geography (e.g. being near the coast)? Where I am in the midwest, it seems that the air normally gets very calm after sunset.

Re:Electric cars are coming fast – is the nation’s grid up t... by philipkglass on Saturday January 30, 2021 @04:08PM (#25973014)
I think that it is generally true for land based turbines. Turbines are so tall that wind conditions at hub height can't be easily estimated by what we experience on the ground. Here's a somewhat dated study that shows hourly patterns for wind generation on the ERCOT grid in Texas, which has the largest wind fleet of any state:

"The Relationship between Wind Generation and Balancing-Energy Market Prices in ERCOT: 2007–2009"

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/49415.pdf

See Figure 5. Hourly generation reaches a minimum from about 1:00 to 5:00 PM and reaches its maximum around 1:00 AM.

Offshore wind output changes less from short term day-night cycles, and generally achieves a higher capacity factor. It is also more expensive to build than onshore wind and no large projects have yet been built for the US, though several are on the drawing board.

Re:Electric cars are coming fast – is the nation’s grid up t... by toomuchtodo on Saturday January 30, 2021 @05:19PM (#25973566)
As usual, your comments on the topic knock it out of the park. Thanks so much for contributing.
Re:Electric cars are coming fast – is the nation’s grid up t... by paul_f on Saturday January 30, 2021 @05:39PM (#25973737)
Not sure a coal-powered car is exactly ideal. We need a better solution