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Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by fractionalhare on Friday January 29, 2021 @07:29PM (#25964691)
Yes, exactly. When a hedge fund is getting its face ripped off because its shorts are up 50 - 200%, it will liquidate its longs to cover. The rotational dynamics of many funds doing that at once can drive the price down on traditionally stable stocks that everyone owns. In a worst case scenario that could trigger a massive selloff which would crash the market.

This is compounded by the fact that funds will defensively sell off (or sell short) stable stocks owned by other funds that look like they're about to blow up. If a fund seems like it's circling the drain and it owns 5% of a ticker, other firms are not going to wait for it to implode and move the price down before they liquidate their own positions in that stock.

This market is terrifying.

Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by throwawayboise on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:37PM (#25965458)
If people know why the hedge funds are selling other positions (to cover shorts) I don't see that triggering a crash, more likely a buying opportunity.

Crashes happen when everybody starts selling and nobody knows why, so they sell even more.

Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by Closi on Saturday January 30, 2021 @06:40AM (#25968292)
It seems like a reduction in short-selling will probably help the market be healthier.

Companies shorting 130% of a stock doesn't help the market.

Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by codeisawesome on Friday January 29, 2021 @07:48PM (#25964820)
After the sell-off, there’s a lot of cash (yes even more) washing around right? It has to go somewhere, and so it will come back into securities in probably a few weeks or max, months. The value represented isn’t exactly disappearing it’s still in the ‘system’. So why is a crash in equities prices such a big deal?
Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by jewel on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:56PM (#25965879)
Money isn't conserved in the same way that matter is. Right now the market cap of gamestop is $22B, which is calculated by multiplying the share price times the number of outstanding shares. If some news comes out over the weekend that causes people to value the stock lower, we could see the first trade at $33/share instead of $330/share. $20B of money just disappears. It never really existed in the first place.
Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by fractionalhare on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:15AM (#25966379)
Right. At the same time, there would be a net loss of value because any shorts who were margin called on GME's meteoric rise will have blown up. Their investors will have lost (possibly all their) money at the same time retail investors found their asks unfulfilled at $330 because the bids crash landed at $33.

In this scenario both the short funds and the retail investors are fucked. A select few retail investors and some of the momentum-trading quants do well. But the majority of the money on either side just evaporates - rapidly.

In a more distant but plausible scenario, this hits a bunch of funds across a bunch of tickers, and it goes systemic. They liquidate their longs trying to survive, and when it's not enough it rolls up into their brokers who are left holding the bag.

Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by fractionalhare on Friday January 29, 2021 @07:52PM (#25964848)
It depends.

If a hedge fund went bankrupt, the cash will go to investors who may be risk averse.

If the hedge fund survives it will have significant losses and probably be cagey about deploying a lot of capital again too quickly because it just stared into the face of death.

In the case of individual investors selling off everything, they might be scared because everything is crashing.

There's no rule that says the money will come back to the market quickly. It depends on investor sentiment. Often things have a V-shaped recovery and things are more or less "fine". We had a few of those over the past few years.

But put it to you this way, if this statement of yours:

It has to go somewhere, and so it will come back into securities in probably a few weeks or max, months. The value represented isn’t exactly disappearing it’s still in the ‘system’.

...was correct, then we wouldn't have crashes. But we do. When fear takes over the money doesn't just come back into the market quickly. And then even if it could, it doesn't because second order effects take over. Small businesses close en masse, etc, which magnifies the downturn until it snowballs into a legitimate recession.

I'm not saying a crash will happen because of this. I'm saying it very realistically can happen.

Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by smaddox on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:06PM (#25965288)
There's also leverage/margin (i.e. borrowing to buy stocks). With higher volatility, investors might be less willing to use leverage, resulting in less total demand, which results in lower prices.

When stocks drop, excess income and capitol drops, reducing demand in the wider market. Companies come under pressure to cut costs, and end up doing layoffs. This further lowers demand, resulting in a feedback loop.

This is all described by Minsky's financial instability-hypothesis. And Steve Keen has built fully dynamic mathematical models that exhibit the process.

Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by codeisawesome on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:05AM (#25966314)
Okay - that begins to explain the problem a bit. So people being afraid and just holding on to their newfound gains in just cash or say, T-bills - can depress the entire economy by a lack of interest in stocks. Structurally it seems a little problematic though that companies would depend so much on issuing stock to fund their operations or even growth - ideally they should be able to do that with revenue (or even debt)...
Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by adolph on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:55PM (#25965562)
Alt hypothesis: Retail just learned a method of turning tables. Hedges will temper market moving short positions due to increased risk. Overall it’s a rebalance due to innovation.
Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by adolph on Saturday January 30, 2021 @11:52AM (#25970616)
Alt alt hypothesis: smart hedges realized the overexposure while ago and wsb is schooling the dumb hedges who filled the vacuum.

https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b1q3cxqlbmltyl...

Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by wrycoder on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:04PM (#25965611)
It only becomes a big deal when the government steps in to "assist" in any way beyond providing copious liquidity.

Downdrafts and even crashes are called corrections for a reason. They eliminate the weak holders and cause the remainder to carefully evaluate their positions. In the absence of interference, they will be over quickly.

They are a disaster for retail investors on margin. I've never understood why the SEC doesn't gradually increase margin requirements across the board when the market starts to get overheated. (But not once it tops!!)

Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by jbay808 on Friday January 29, 2021 @08:40PM (#25965154)
Is there some reason a crash shouldn't happen? If you have a stake in the market, even in diversified index funds, presumably you know the risk is non-zero, and accept that because the rewards are higher than lower-risk choices like, say, stuffing your money under the mattress.
Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by MrFoof on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:26PM (#25965708)
Been ten years since I was last in it, but a lot of large investment firms (before automated trading was prevalent in the older large institutions) don't have people responding to the market ad hoc. Trades are executed infrequently (weekly, if not monthly) and are approved upfront during trade planning meetings to define the qualifying parameters for a particular order.
Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by ihavenoclue62 on Monday February 01, 2021 @03:30PM (#25993436)
That doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing doesn't it? If large hedges stop overleveraging themselves to such an extent where this could happen we might see a return to more accurate company valuations. I see it as a net positive for the market in the long run
Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by chordalkeyboard on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:12PM (#25965331)
> This market is terrifying.

I think this represents an upgrade from being chased by tigers. Sedentaryism, metabolic syndrome, being fired by the machine, sweatshops, homelessness, addiction, those are downsides from foraging aboriginal lifestyle. But being terrified of losing money is different than being terrified of getting literally eaten.

Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by fractionalhare on Friday January 29, 2021 @09:30PM (#25965417)
Well sure, I'd definitely rather short Gamestop and watch my short thesis get delegitimized in real time than literally run from a hungry tiger.
Re:u/DeepFuckingValue and the GameStop Reddit mania by chillwaves on Friday January 29, 2021 @10:44PM (#25965804)
Except humans have been apex predators for a long long time.