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Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by Firebrand on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:16PM (#25950925)
Watching social media frame today as being orchestrated by some shadowy cabal was truly bizarre.

Robinhood just didn’t have the capital to clear trades of super volatile stocks. I think people would have understood if they just came out and said so yesterday.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by worker767424 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:53PM (#25951278)
> didn’t have the capital to clear trades of super volatile stocks

As long as people executing buy orders have enough cash or margin in their account to cover the purchase, how is this a problem?

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by esoterica on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:37PM (#25951886)
It's not about the relationship between the end user and the broker, it's about the relationship between the broker and the clearing house. Trades take two days to settle, and the brokerage needs to post collateral with the clearing house to reassure them that they have enough funds to settle the trades. When volatility goes up, clearing houses demand more collateral to allow further trading, which the brokerage might be unwilling or unable to provide. This is independent of whether the end user is using margin.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by skosch on Thursday January 28, 2021 @09:06PM (#25952713)
Well, in a world where users had to have fully funded their accounts before making any orders, the clearinghouse would have nothing to worry about. So it's not exactly independent from whether end users are using margin.

It looks like RH let hordes of new users onto the platform and allowed them to put in GME orders before having those users' cash in the bank. Now the clearinghouse sees the volatility, throws up its hands and goes "listen RH, no more of these crazy GME orders from you until you have the cash to pay for them". Understandable – but that should be RH's problem, not that of its users.

What's not OK is RH's sledgehammer solution of disabling buying for all users, even those whose accounts are fully funded, not to mention force-selling people's shares against their will. IMHO they deserve all of the anger and lawsuits currently directed at them. (Edit: unless, of course, they are only force-selling stocks that were bought on margin in the first place, and if their T&C let them do that, in which case ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by esoterica on Thursday January 28, 2021 @09:18PM (#25952819)
The clearing house doesn't know who is trading on margin and who isn't. They don't have visibility into the brokerage's interactions with their clients. They can't "only allow trading for non-margin accounts".
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by skosch on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:42PM (#25953570)
No, but RH knows, and could make that distinction if they wanted to. RH is punishing margin and non-margin users alike until it has enough cash again to resume making orders.

To be clear, the RH T&C very broadly protect them in case of any arbitrary service interruption, so on paper they're probably entitled to do whatever they want. But at the end of the day, it was them who got caught with their pants down because they went too far in their UX/risk tradeoff, and now users are paying the price and are understandably pissed.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by dodobirdlord on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:09PM (#25951487)
Well, the margin in those accounts is specifically Robinhood’s problem.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by gmethowaway on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:25PM (#25951733)
If margin is the only problem, why many brokers disallowed buying GME stock on non margin accounts?
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by smnrchrds on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:52PM (#25951267)
Did TD Ameritrade, Charles Schwab, and Interactive Brokers face liquidity issues as well?
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by llbeansandrice on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:01PM (#25951368)
I don't know about the others, but TD Ameritrade did restrict trading (maybe just buying as well) but only if you were buying on margin. RH is getting ire because they restricted buying for everyone.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by gmethowaway on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:29PM (#25951787)
Interactive Brokers blocked buying GME stock in non margin accounts. What I hear from twitter the same was for RH.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by dannyw on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:54PM (#25952607)
Correct. If you are in Australia, file a complaint and then escalate to AFCA. This violates the Market Integrity rules which applies to IBKR Australia.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by bunnyfoofoo on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:57PM (#25952078)
On TD Ameritrade, I had no issues buying and selling (in cash) shares of GME today. I did have to call a broker to sell covered NOK calls though as those gave errors when trying to open the position myself in thinkorswim.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by cush on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:20AM (#25954299)
Big difference between halting or restricting volume and preventing a long...
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by fma on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:26PM (#25952377)
I have Merrill Edge and for whatever reason they blocked buying GME shares...
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by _whiteCaps_ on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:58PM (#25951340)
https://twitter.com/Wealthsimple/status/1354860658723086338

WealthSimple is not restricting trades, but displays warning banners about GME:

"GME is considered risky. Traders should expect high volatility. If you do choose to place an order, use a limit order with a set price."

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by adrr on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:45PM (#25951966)
They should turn off market orders for the stock. Treat it like after hours where volume is limited and stock is volatile.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by renewiltord on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:48PM (#25951220)
They came out and said they did it to protect users from volatile stocks. I’m sure we can hypothesize but why not just listen to what they say and judge them for it.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by cush on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:28AM (#25954347)
Welcome to capitalism, friend. Customers should be holding businesses accountable.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by cwhiz on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:00PM (#25951356)
> Robinhood just didn’t have the capital to clear trades of super volatile stocks.

This was not their stated reason for shutting down the trades. What is your source for this claim?

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by adrr on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:48PM (#25951997)
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by Miner49er on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:13PM (#25952232)
It's not, they don't give any reasons in that blog post.

They vaguely hint at things that could be the reason, but they never actually say those are the reason. This is either shady or horrible PR.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by cwhiz on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:50PM (#25952012)
That is not a source for what OP is saying has happened.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by esoterica on Friday January 29, 2021 @02:55AM (#25955089)
> As a brokerage firm, we have many financial requirements, including SEC net capital obligations and clearinghouse deposits. Some of these requirements fluctuate based on volatility in the markets and can be substantial in the current environment. These requirements exist to protect investors and the markets and we take our responsibilities to comply with them seriously, including through the measures we have taken today.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by franklampard on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:03PM (#25951403)
Melvin capital
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by tootie on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:56PM (#25951306)
Everyone said the same about reddit and didn't blink when the sub came back in 45 minutes. I think it's also grossly naïve that reddit is even the main player anymore. There's so much after hours trading going on that has to be institutional. DFV made a great call and everyone noticed.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by tayo42 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:05PM (#25952149)
Why does it have to be institutional? I made a pre market trade the other day. Figure other regular people can too
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by TheAlchemist on Friday January 29, 2021 @04:16AM (#25955511)
Because institutional also own >100% of the stock (that sounds silly indeed, but it's the case).

See here: https://money.cnn.com/quote/shareholders/shareholders.html?s...

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by JumpCrisscross on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:06PM (#25951433)
> people would have understood if they just came out and said so yesterday

Agree. But generally speaking, financial services firms don't like to say "we ran out of money."

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by phkahler on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:56PM (#25951304)
What does that even mean? Dont they hold investors cash, and use that to purchase shares when those investors want to buy?

Is there another fiction at play here?

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by greenshackle2 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:40PM (#25951911)
The available cash in a brokerage account can be a bit of a fiction, in that the brokerage may not literally hold it as cash, they may put it in a low-yield safe investment and keep the interest, and they may let you trade with unsettled funds from stock sales or bank transfers that haven't cleared yet.

US stocks have T+2 settlement, when you buy or sell the money and stock are really only exchanged two days later by the clearinghouse. Until that happens, if they let you trade the proceeds immediately, you're kind of trading with a very short term loan that has your "sold" stock as collateral, it's technically not totally risk-free.

You can buy with unsettled cash even in a cash account but there are a few rules to follow to avoid violations. In a margin account you may be trading with margin without realizing if you trade frequently and don't pay attention to settlement.

Even if you're not trading margin the whole system is kind of running on short-term credit and there are capital requirements. The clearinghouse has to make sure the brokerage can fulfill all its obligations for all the unsettled stuff for the next N days even if it goes under tomorrow.

(EDIT: The whole financial system tends to run like this.. you can spend the money from a deposited check long before it has cleared, etc.)

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by phkahler on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:53PM (#25952605)
Thanks for that. It seems like a mild and practical fiction. Most the time it seems to just work with reduced friction.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by loeg on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:22PM (#25952325)
Why not settle at T+0? We have computers now.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by greenshackle2 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @09:28PM (#25952911)
Yeah there's no technical reason not to at this point, China has it. Just inertia and having to invest in the systems and processes to do it, I guess. It started at like T+14 when you had to mail physical stock certificates around then +7, +5, +3, +2, I'm sure they'll get there eventually. US futures are already settled T+0.

From my limited experience back office software is a legacy clusterfuck and the Ops team has to pick up the phone and call counter-parties on T+1 to unfuck things more often than you'd think, but those are things that could be fixed with better systems if the investment was made.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by thatguy0900 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:09PM (#25951488)
No, robinhood by default opens margin accounts, so they loan you money to buy stocks with. Those were the orders they forced out, as far as I'm aware they never messed with cash accounts beyond not letting them buy.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by dodobirdlord on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:14PM (#25951552)
Robinhood doesn’t buy and sell stocks, they just run an app. Downstream they have a relationship with Citadel, which does the actual trading. In theory it could have been Citadel that decided to stop allowing these trades, but Citadel has announced that they haven’t done that.
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by Miner49er on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:12PM (#25952218)
Then why hasn't Robinhood came out and said this like other brokers have?

I'm not necessarily trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but they have horrible PR.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by cush on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:19AM (#25954287)
Who said cabal? There's a basic conflict of interest between Robinhood and Citron. Of course it should be looked into...
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by matwood on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:10PM (#25951501)
> Watching social media frame today as being orchestrated by some shadowy cabal was truly bizarre.

Once most of the brokerages started restricting, I assumed the SEC made the call. If it had just been RH, then some backroom deal might have been more plausible, though still unlikely given the regulations.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by franklampard on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:03PM (#25951397)
“Just didn’t have the capital to ...” so they screwed millions of investors?

How on earth is this legal?

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:21PM (#25951660)
If they are lending you money (which is what margin is), then it's perfectly legal.

You don't have a right to be lent money by anyone.

Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by franklampard on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:28PM (#25951776)
but cash accounts were all affected
Re:Robinhood is said to draw on bank credit lines amid tumult by SV_BubbleTime on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:50PM (#25951248)
> Watching social media frame today as being orchestrated by some shadowy cabal was truly bizarre.

Makes me wonder how much of the rest of what social media “directs” and “nudges”. What other high profile events where all of social media happen to agree and line up on are not what they seem? Gell-Mann Amnesia is real.