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Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by WClayFerguson on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:27AM (#25944357)
The left wing is still not wanting to rise up against censorship because they believe it's still benefiting them, since BigTech (+M5M) is their leftist ally...for now.

What they need to realize is that once you give Tyrannical Control over to your leaders (governments, or BigTech censors), because you consider them benevolent today, it's foolish because they won't be benevolent forever.

Our founding fathers knew power corrupts, but today's 20-somethings seem quite unaware. They think we can create a system where all forms of "bad" speech are stopped. But the problem with that is you end up having to define "bad". My definition of "patriotic speech" might be your definition of "mean speech", so unless you appoint power-wielding dictators to make the final decision, the only solution is to just say everyone is free. Once you allow dictators they'll always become corrupt and self-interested.

The left thinks they're in a war against evil and meanies, but really the only opponent they're fighting is freedom itself.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by majormajor on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:48PM (#25946863)
> Our founding fathers knew power corrupts, but today's 20-somethings seem quite unaware.

The government has to be able to actively respond to the problems of the moment, and those problems will constantly change. A handcuffed government only benefits the already-powerful.

The dirty secrets of the "but the founding fathers!" argument are that (a) they knew they weren't creating a perfect set of rules in the Constitution, and planned for us to be modifying it as we learned new things and the world changes, and (b) it's failed anyway. Abstract principles listed on a page don't "protect freedom," bad actors can find ways to sneak things through (sometimes in plain sight, like that whole slavery thing that took a century to get figured out, or the followup forms of discrimination that are still with us).

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by WClayFerguson on Thursday January 28, 2021 @03:51PM (#25949010)
Our founding fathers and subsequent forefathers fought wars to protect our freedoms, and sadly the current generation don't value or even want to preserve that freedom. Good times create weak men, and weak men will happily surrender to Tyranny.
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by majormajor on Thursday January 28, 2021 @04:42PM (#25949733)
Some of that "subsequent" group actually even fought a war to prevent some of our freedoms!

There's no weakness in challenging the storybook fable-ized versions of history.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by WClayFerguson on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:20PM (#25950955)
Well as long as you're on the side if freedom, free speech, small government, capitalism, and patriotism, you're one of the good guys.

I think the biggest "story-telling" that's going on lately is in our schools by our socialist educators.

[dead]
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by mbostleman on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:42PM (#25945499)
>>lately it seems that "the right" remains undecided about whether or not it is acceptable to threaten the lives of politicians who refused to overturn the results of an election>>

This isn't even remotely a representative sentiment of the 70+ million people that are not on the "left".

>>"The left" is for democracy>>

Again, I don't think we would find this accurate if data were collected. Both sides are "for democracy". I think what you would find is something slightly more refined: that one side appreciates that democracy alone is flawed and requires a strong constitution to guard against its propensity to oppress individuals. The other side finds a constitution that limits democracy too constraining.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by cgrealy on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:56PM (#25947044)
> This isn't even remotely a representative sentiment of the 70+ million people that are not on the "left".

Probably not, but it’s a pretty accurate summary of their leadership.

The facts are the 45 and the Republicans attempted to throw out the results of an election.

You can argue that most people on the right do not agree with this, but they should really stop voting for these people then.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by mbostleman on Thursday January 28, 2021 @02:25PM (#25947555)
"...45 and the Republicans attempted to throw out the results of an election."

Do you mean that 45 Republicans voted against ratifying the electoral college votes? My understanding is that that vote is largely procedural and that the losing side voting against it as a protest is common in every election. If you take away that context it makes for a great narrative in this election (the whole histrionic overthrow theme), but context often matters.

My understanding could be wrong, though. I couldn't quickly put my hands on the historical voting record. Or maybe that's not what you're referring to.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by dragonwriter on Thursday January 28, 2021 @04:10PM (#25949257)
> My understanding is that that vote is largely procedural and that the losing side voting against it as a protest is common in every election

No. The only times prior to 2021 that an objection in proper form to trigger a debate and vote on any state’s submitted electoral votes since the modern process was adopted in 1887 were in 2005 and 1969 (the latter over a faithless elector), both addressing only a single state, and the 2005 example was explicitly stated to be an effort to draw attention to electoral system issues rather than alter the outcome; there weren't members who voted for it stating on national TV the expectation that who would be President was in doubt based on the action the way, e.g., Sen. Hawley did in regard to the challenges this month.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday January 28, 2021 @03:58PM (#25949102)
Your understanding is wrong.

Voting against result certification is occasionally used as a protest against certain specific irregularities. It is absolutely not common to vote against them, and not in these numbers (i.e. not as a lone congressperson or two drawing attention to something they see as a problem).

[ EDIT: added known historical examples ]

Specific examples: 2016, 11 Democrats rose to object to certifying Trump's results; none of them had obtained a Senator's cosignature and so all were dismissed immediately. Objections were based on reports of Russian interference, subsequently confirmed in the broadest sense by the Mueller and Senate reports, though their findings would not have likely invalidated any actual results.

2004: 1 Senator and 1 Representative raised objections to results favoring Bush from a single state. They both stressed that their objections were not intended to change the outcome of that election.

2001: on the order of 15 Representatives raised objections to the Gore/Bush result, which had been decided by the SCOTUS. No Senator joined them, and Gore himself dropped the Gavel on their protest.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by mbostleman on Thursday January 28, 2021 @04:15PM (#25949332)
Ok, only 40% wrong. So protesting that the election was flawed occurred in 60% of the elections in the last two decades, which more than supports my point that without such context the overthrow narrative loses a good deal of its exaggerated effect when one learns that this election was not unique on that point.
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday January 28, 2021 @04:16PM (#25949349)
I think that scale matters. The number of house members and their coordination with 6 senators in my mind makes what happened this year different in so many important ways. Obviously, YMMV.
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by cgrealy on Thursday January 28, 2021 @03:11PM (#25948333)
No, "45" was a reference to the last president.

>the losing side voting against it as a protest is common in every election.

Really? That would be news to me. Do you have a source for that?

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by mbostleman on Thursday January 28, 2021 @03:26PM (#25948558)
I think I addressed that in my last paragraph.
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by wizzwizz4 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:46PM (#25945582)
The world is not divided into two camps, not should it be. Some people are neither with nor against you; they've got their own things going on.
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by WClayFerguson on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:08PM (#25946063)
Labels can be divisive and tribal when used against individuals, to smear them by saying they're guilty of the bad actions of a few in a group. However language itself is built on "labels", so they're required.

It's impossible to criticize bad ideas without some shorthand label for those kinds of thinking and ideologies. The fact that whole entire groups hold those same ideas necessarily is a critique of the entire group, and is necessarily tribal. But labels are nonetheless also necessary for the discussion to take place.

Democracies can only thrive when there's an educated population free to discuss all ideas, and allowed to strongly criticize or even ridicule those they disagree with. Yet people like Jack Dorsey think it's their duty to step in as a referee to make sure everyone's polite and behaves according to his personal political views. He needs to be put back in his place, because no one elected him, and he just fell backwards by accident into a power position over millions by pure luck.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by wizzwizz4 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:50PM (#25946906)
You implied that “the right” means everyone not on “the left” – but I thought “the right” and “the left” were labels for political ideologies.
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by WClayFerguson on Thursday January 28, 2021 @02:58PM (#25948134)
To me "The Left" means the set of beliefs more than it means the set of believers, but you can't have a belief without a believer.
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by joshuamorton on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:38PM (#25946693)
From this description, I can't tell which side you're characterizing as which. That would generally imply it's more of a platitude than a real realization.

Also while that may be true of individuals (I don't think it is), it clearly isn't true of party leadership.

[dead]
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by SamBam on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:55PM (#25945755)
> literally ushered into the buildings by security

Are you serious?

The fact that some cops eventually decided that 20 cops could not stand against 1000 violent protestors smashing through windows and doors, after at least one cop had been dragged out of his position and beaten senseless by the mob, and another cop killed, and so decided that the safest thing to do was open the doors, doesn't mean that all of a sudden they were peaceful protestors. Give me a fucking break.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by deadbunny on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:02PM (#25945931)
> actual peaceful protestors

They killed a Police Officer, chanted "Hang Pence", and tried to stop the democratic process of verifying votes for the new president.

Now of course you will likely argue that they were a small minority, but I don't see you making that concession for those on the "other side" so I'm not sure how much weight it'll have.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by mcguire on Thursday January 28, 2021 @02:14PM (#25947353)
Since no one else mentioned it,

"The entire summer long while buildings burned, and entire cities looted by violent murdering thugs..."

Could you provide some evidence for "entire cities looted by violent murdering thugs"?

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by WClayFerguson on Thursday January 28, 2021 @04:05PM (#25949191)
Well, if you watched the M5M you won't really know about any of it. lol. Thanks for helping make my point!
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by mcguire on Thursday January 28, 2021 @07:18PM (#25951621)
M5M? https://m5mfoundation.org/? Do you mean "main stream media"? If so, no, I don't tend to pay attention to QAnon, OAN, InfoWars, or whatever those who use "main stream media" as a slur watch. Prefer the Beeb, actually.

I still can't find any actual evidence of "violent murdering thugs" "looting entire cities".

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by WClayFerguson on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:21PM (#25952316)
The MSM has only themselves to blame for their record low levels of trust by Americans. You're right that the term MSM is basically a slur at this point. Great point. Thanks again for helping me make my points.
Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by farias0 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:54PM (#25945723)
Do you have a source to the "ushered into the buildings" thing? Like, are you saying they didn't intend into storming the Capitol but were guided/leaded there by the security staff?

Also I think you're being unfair by ignoring the causes of both of the protests, as (IMO, feel free to disagree) one of them was directly supporting democratic and liberal interests and the other was directly against them. I don't think you can discuss the protests without taking into account what they were protesting.

Re:Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Fre... by wizzwizz4 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:49PM (#25945634)
It took me a while to place the cognitive dissonance, but I found it eventually: you've made stuff up. Buildings weren't burning all summer, “violent murdering thugs” weren't called peaceful, “politically organized rally” doesn't mean anything…