As the other reply mentioned, I wonder if this is just the human cost insanity infecting veterinary costs -- MRI tech could be used for humans, so the machine is absurdly expensive, and vets have to charge more to justify the cost of having a dedicated pet MRI.

MRI machines also require superconducting magnets and liquid helium, high-amperage utility hookups, etc., so they might just be expensive regardless.

True, but in my experience getting a few MRIs, the price from various imaging centers nearby varied (for the exact same MRI) from $500 to $2000.

The $2000 place is associated with a local hospital chain that is well regarded. I guess that is how they could negotiate $2000 for an MRI with insurance and the other place (that I went to) was only able to negotiate $500.

Honestly, the price for health care in the US is all funny money. I've gotten a single shot, of a very common drug, that was billed at $20k, knocked down to $10k with the "insurance discount", so my 10% co-pay ended up $1000, with insurance!

I had a surgery that was billied at $250k where the "discount" was over $150k. That $250k price is clearly not real.

And theae kinda of prices are why I'll probably never choose to live in the US. How do people live with the possibility that a freak accident could completely and permanently finacially ruin them.

The highest medical bill I've ever paid is £8.50. Of course I pay National Insurance to cover the costs of the healthcare system. But as far as I can tell that's no more expensive than what people in the US pay despite their insurance having not nearly the same coverage.

> How do people live with the possibility that a freak accident could completely and permanently finacially ruin them

They have insurance. And if they don't, they declare bankruptcy. It's not permanent. It's a seven-year ding on your credit rating.

Yes. This is the piece people don't seem to understand. Bankruptcy doesn't ruin your life. It just makes it hard to get credit for seven years.

I think the piece that people don't seem to understand is how you can live in a country where bankruptcy is presented as a normal part of life.

I have never declared bankruptcy and there isn't really a situation that I can foresee where I will need to.

Do you sell all your assets, like realty where you live in, personal possessions, car, tickets to vacation you happen to buy beforehand? Or declaring bancrupcy is really harmless and easy?

I am genuinely interested.

It varies by state. There's a list at https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bankruptcy-exemption.... Basically you can keep stuff like the house you live in, your not-flashy car, household goods, tools of your trade, a small amount of personal property (if you own, say, a nice musical instrument or some jewelry worth $2k or whatever). As a general rule, anyone rich enough to have to sell property in a bankruptcy already has health insurance.

And please don't take any of this as a defense of the current abominable US system. I lost my dad to complications of untreated diabetes because he didn't have health insurance. What I'm saying is that people who should declare bankruptcy often don't, because they think bankruptcy will ruin their life. It won't. It protects you from predatory lenders and gives you a fresh start.

> As a general rule, anyone rich enough to have to sell property in a bankruptcy already has health insurance.

Isn't the issue that health insurance often doesn't cover everything. And that it's very difficult to get health insurance at all if you have pre-existing or chronic conditions (exactly the people who need it the most).

It also costs you all of your assets.

Maybe, but MRIs in India (in better machines, no less) are MUCH cheaper.

Pets tend to be smaller than humans, so manufacturers could ensure that pet MRIs don't drag down human MRI prices by making smaller MRI machines that only work for pets. They probably do.

There are "small animal" MRI machines, which are mostly intended for research.

The bores are really small: 55mm or so is not uncommon, so a mouse would fit, but nothing much bigger. Other animals are usually scanned on a machine meant for humans (sometimes even the exact same ones, very early in the morning or late at night).

Tend to be, but it's not that rare for someone to have a dog that's a hundred pounds and five feet long. That's in the range for an adult human.

My dad, a radiologist once had patient that was so large that they couldn't fit them on a conventional CT scanner. Luckily this was a university town, so they were able to access the vet's large animal scanner.

Makes sense. Horses and cows get much larger than humans!

I suppose that does make sense.

Re: the large patient, yikes!

Part of that is probably the lower volume, so they have to amortize the costs over fewer procedures. Most pet injuries don't need an MRI or if the injury/illness is that bad the euthanasia or palliative only option is more considered.

Human MRIs are also pretty expensive, and human MRI machines are generally booked solid. MRI machines cost a lot and also cost a lot to operate.

Last time looked at the costs of imaging I got the impression that there are a monopoly and other captive market effects at work.

You'll hear medical professionals claim imaging is expensive because the machines are expensive. Which just says to me that medical professionals aren't accountants.

Consider a dental w-ray machine. $15-30k. That's the cost of Prius used as a Taxi. You don't pay a couple dollars for a 15 minute Taxi cab ride.

An MRI machine, I forget how much those cost. But whatever, lets compare one with a modern passenger airliner. Cost is about equivalent on a 'per passenger' basis. And an airliner requires highly trained professionals to keep it running.

You are on the money.

My dog had MRIs and ultrasound recently. Each event was $700-$900 a pop.

I take my dog for routine full checkup that includes MRI and Ultrasound whenever I travel to south america. They use the same machine brand as in the US, with same diagnostics. I pay $50-$85 over there for the same tests.

Vets over in SA (not business owners) make about $500-$1000 USD per month.

It would seem the huge cost is not from the machine. Its the labor. I think these are the 2 key differences:

a) Based on my understanding, getting licensed in this SA country is a nonissue. There is in fact an oversupply of vets because its easy to practice.

b) The price for the vet studies is on the 2k-5k year for a private U. Compare with US Colleges.

Regarding quality: Our vet in SA diagnosed my dog after seeing the US diagnostic test reports , over whatsapp. She was correct on her diagnosis from the start. It took 4 different US vets, 3 separate facilities, 4 days of hospital bills ($5000) to arrive at the same conclusion that I got from a whatsapp.

It is not the machine problem. It is a captive market with huge costs related to labor.

A new 787 is 200 million and carries up to 300 people and has a working life of 44,000 flights, for a total of 13 million people trips.

A new MRI costs ~3 million, has an operational life of 10 years, performs 5000 scans per year, for a total 50,000 people trips.

The people operating the MRI machine are probably payed more than anyone working on the airplane and take vastly more time per passenger.

MRIs are principally taken by technicians then a doctor will interpret them but the bulk of the operation isn't done by doctors and the techs are well paid but are paid less than a first year commercial airline pilot. IF you include all the maintenance and support around in airplane and around an MRI machine I think the airplane will be even further ahead.

[0] https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/magnetic-resonance-im...

Thanks, I learned something today. I think the point still stands if you include the time of the radiologist and tech, capital and employment costs for MRI in the US are substantial.

I agree that it is a very strange comparison between MRI and a plane, I was just chiming in on the capital and employment cost for each could be comparable on a per trip basis, not that MRI prices are where they should be.

In my personal opinion, a major problem with US healthcare is a race to the top, where the newest and best care is sought irrespective of the price. A judgement call needs to made somewhere on cost/marginal benefit, and post-procedure reimbursement debates is the worst way to do it. CT machines can cost between 250K and 14 million, as I mentioned in a sibling post. Similarly, MRI costs can range from $170-$5,500 [1]. In the current system, almost nobody is incentivized to keep costs down. Doctors and insured patients want the best care, as costs are externalized to the insurance pool. Insurance companies want to maximize costs, because their profit margin is limited by a % of spending.

https://turquoise.health/service_offerings?q=MRI&location=90...

> A new MRI costs ~3 million,

You seem to be off by a factor of 5 or 10.

https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/MRI-Machine-Cost-and...

I was quoting the number for a modern 3 tesla MRI machines, which would fall into the 500k+ range on your link. These are high end but not necessarily rare. For example, UCSF has 4 of these machines. These can easily be on the order of 3 million+ with installation

https://www.pasadenanow.com/main/lab-in-emerging-biomedical-...

Here is a link for a 7 million suite to house one of the machines https://www.dignityhealth.org/sacramento/about-us/press-cent...

While costs for these machines are going down, even more expensive 7 and 10 Tesla machines are starting to be installed, going up to $14 million

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07182-7

3 T machines are not necessarily better, it depends on what they're trying to look at, getter a sharper image of noise is not useful.

Anyway, your estimate seems to be way off, basing it on a 6 year old puff piece for a cutting edge model that was deployed in a lab. The cost for a typical new MRI is more like $500k.

Do have any personal info here, because the first ten articles I read were up there and your article doesn’t negate it

Doesn't negate what?

If you ask "How much does a car cost?" The answer is not "Here are some articles about people buying Lamborghinis that cost $250,000".

Most people are using a middle of the road 1.5 T machine.

https://lbnmedical.com/how-much-does-an-mri-machine-cost/

I never said I was talking about averages ct machines any more than a brand new 787-9 is the average plane. You can get a 20 year 737 for a lot less than 200mil, and is probably closer to the average.

If your point is that MRIs less than 3T exist, I agree. If your point is that cheaper MRI exist, I agree. If your point is that nobody has spent 3 mil on a CT, then I disagree. A link showing the price of used machines 10-15 years old isn’t going to change that.