I leave out visual design because lots of startups that meet every goal you can eventually imagine (ginzametrics, bingocardcreator) don't even go close at having a decent visual design (no offence intended).

I believe visuals are also a very subjective matter, and belong much more to the "talent" side of things, than to the "knowledge" one.

Just saw this (Google Alerts could use some work).

I'm genuinely curious to get your feedback / more explanation of what you mean when you say we (Ginzametrics) "don't even go close to having decent visual design."

We're always working to improve our design so if you are willing to share specific feedback, I'd love to hear it. Drop me a line at [email protected]. Thanks!

"because [visual design is] so easy to pick up by cruising Dribbble for inspiration"

It is?

I think what's being said here is that it's easy to pick up the ideas of visual design, not the actual skill (I hope). As a budding designer, Dribbble is definitely helpful in allowing you to see "the bar" and improve how you approach certain projects. However, it is most definitely NOT easy to "pick up [visual design] by cruising Dribbble."

You are both referring to style.

Yeah, and?

Design is a solution to a problem. It doesn't matter what the medium is. Sometimes you see these solutions on Dribbble but more often than not what you see are examples of style. They are two separate things.

Your definition of design includes style, since style can (and often is) a solution to a problem as well. Not everything is wireframes and usability, and this is coming from someone who's first book on the job was Jakob Nielsen's.

Ever read Blink? Or those studies about how people make an unconscious decision about a website in less than a second?

Style and polish expresses a level of quality (at the very least) and can also communicate the type of site. Is this a kid-friendly Disney site? Is it a serious financial tool? Is it a mysterious stealth mode startup?

I'll concede as much. I was drawn by the fact that the discussion was about design, and you two went off into style land. It'd be about the same as us starting a talk on Rock and Roll and we really just dive into guitar solos while swearing it's rock we are on about. Make sense?

“Not everything is design, but design is about everything.” - Michael Bierut

I think that sums us both up nicely ;)

Haha, quoting my own about page against me, love it :)

Yeah, design includes style but isn't just style, that's what we're both saying I think.

Yeah, it is. See my response to rglover below and feel free to ping me offline if you need more tips.