News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by fjabre on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:44PM (#25864729)
This is false. The left now has the Senate and the Presidency.

The electoral college does not matter. They go the way their states go as was made quite clear in the last election.

EDIT: Of course it matters how the voting system was designed. The EC votes the way their State votes.

The forefathers intended for states to have some say in the matter. We are a representative democracy. That is how the system was designed.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by xxpor on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:51PM (#25864881)
You can not seriously argue the EC doesn't matter when the republicans have won the popular vote once since 1988 yet have held the presidency for 3 terms.
[dead]
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by joelkevinjones on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:26PM (#25866093)
What do you mean by saying that democrats took over the post office? I assume you mean the USPS? The postmaster general was appointed by Trump. The senate until just last week had a Republican majority. Exactly how did the Democrats exercise power to "take over"?
[dead]
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by DFHippie on Thursday January 21, 2021 @07:14PM (#25866572)
The Democrats wanted the USPS to deliver the mail. They also wanted people to be able to vote through the mail because we are in the middle of the worst pandemic in 100 years. This is different from treating the USPS as a general voting system.

You are arguing that the Democrats cheated more than the Republicans, or "better". Do you have any evidence of this? This needs to be evidence from the past election, not Chicago in 1962 or something.

[dead]
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by amanaplanacanal on Thursday January 21, 2021 @11:01PM (#25868168)
Does “clearly” mean you have evidence? It sounds like your argument is that everyone will cheat if they have the chance.
[dead]
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by triceratops on Friday January 22, 2021 @10:44PM (#25879409)
> Most people will cheat in high stakes games.

Citation required.

> I cannot possibly prove any of this to you.

So why bother saying it?

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:59PM (#25866429)
You have no evidence of cheating in this election that has been accepted by any court.

You have no evidence that USPS function "favored" Democrats.

You are perpetuating the lies that have been told by the former president and his supporters for the last 2+ months.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by gowld on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:23PM (#25866063)
> Each state gets numbers by its population.

This is false, and the core of the criticism of the EC. Each state gets 2 votes independent of its population, which is biased toward small population states, and for over a century the definition of states was constrained by a compromise to protect slavery.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by fjabre on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:29PM (#25866130)
California has more electors than Vermont.
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by triceratops on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:45PM (#25867688)
A hypothetical state with 3 people, if admitted to the Union, would have the same number of electors as Wyoming. Clearly sheer numbers are meaningless. And you know that, you just want to argue in bad faith.
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by DFHippie on Thursday January 21, 2021 @07:17PM (#25866594)
Vermont supports abolishing the Electoral College.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Intersta...

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday January 21, 2021 @07:01PM (#25866445)
You're still missing the point. The lowest number of electors a state can have is three. Mathematically, this biases the EC in favor of low population states.

The same approach (all states having two senators) biases the Senate in favor of low population states.

This appears to have been intentional on the part of the founders, but that doesn't make it right.

[ EDIT: s/two/three/ ]

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by fjabre on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:47PM (#25867707)
Yes it was designed for this purpose. That's what I'm saying.

So big states couldn't bully around small ones.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday January 22, 2021 @12:57AM (#25868810)
In just a few years, 30% of the US population will be responsible for electing 70% of the Senate.

How is that not "bullying"?

How does that play any role in an actual democratic nation, as opposed to some pre-Lincoln concept of the US a series of independent states merely "unioned"? The answer is obvious: it doesn't.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by triceratops on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:54PM (#25867755)
I guess it's better for small states to bully around big ones instead?
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by xxpor on Thursday January 21, 2021 @08:25PM (#25867060)
623,989/3 = 207996.333333

39,510,000/55 = 718363.636364

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by fjabre on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:45PM (#25867689)
So what? That's the point.
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by xxpor on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:59PM (#25867796)
You might have had a minimal argument pre-17th Amendment, but that's not how the world works any more.

In addition, there's 0 reason for the house to be as malapportioned as it is. 435 house members isn't written in the constitution.

Third, the entire concept of smaller states having an outsized voice in the federal government comes from the slave owners from the South in 1789. There's no rational basis for it any longer.

People like to pretend the founders were deities and the constitution is handed down from god. But they weren't and it wasn't. A lot of their ideas were really stupid. I mean JFC, we couldn't even get through 3 elections before they had to redo it.

Vermont has a lot more in common these days with California than it does North Dakota. The EC and Senate are outmoded relics from a stupider time that should be abolished.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by nobody9999 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @11:54PM (#25868456)
>Third, the entire concept of smaller states having an outsized voice in the federal government comes from the slave owners from the South in 1789. There's no rational basis for it any longer.

No. It had to do with Connecticut, New Jersey and other small population states who wouldn't have ratified the Constitution unless there was state representation (as we have in the Senate) to balance out the representation by population (cf. The Connecticut Compromise[0]).

The southern states had (or expected to have) large populations, and as such, wanted representation by population.

History and facts matter.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Compromise

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by dragonwriter on Friday January 22, 2021 @12:31PM (#25873858)
> The southern states had (or expected to have) large populations

The Southern States were underrepresented in the Senate compared to the House by the initial apportionment in the Constitution, represented at very close to the same ratio in each House in the apportionment for the 1790 Census (largely reflecting that they had been overrepresented relative to population, in the House, in the Constitutional apportionment), and substantially overrepresented in the Senate compared to the House after the 1800 Census.

They were well aware of the imminent demographic trends and acted accordingly.

> History and facts matter.

Indeed they do, but the history and facts aren't on the side of “the Southern States had large initial and expected future populations as counted for apportionment in the House and, so by-State representation in the Senate was contrary to, rather than designed to serve, their regional interest.”

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by nobody9999 on Friday January 22, 2021 @02:30PM (#25875276)
>The Southern States were underrepresented in the Senate compared to the House by the initial apportionment in the Constitution, represented at very close to the same ratio in each House in the apportionment for the 1790 Census (largely reflecting that they had been overrepresented relative to population, in the House, in the Constitutional apportionment), and substantially overrepresented in the Senate compared to the House after the 1800 Census.

That's orthogonal to the concerns of small population states, in 1787, when the Connecticut Compromise was adopted.

What's more, the results of 1790 and 1800 Censuses didn't impact support or opposition to that compromise, as they hadn't been performed yet.

>by-State representation in the Senate was contrary to, rather than designed to serve, their regional interest.”

Which is the flip-side of the coin to what I said.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by triceratops on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:51PM (#25864872)
> The left now has the Senate and the Presidency.

The key term is "now". After getting about 40m more votes. Be honest. Is that balanced?

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by fjabre on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:56PM (#25865743)
Was just pointing out it's quite clear that the nation itself is left leaning. That's honest by the numbers.

To say the Republicans have any kind of advantage right now except for maybe the courts is incorrect.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by takeda on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:21PM (#25866045)
They had to lose by 7 million votes to actually lose, I would say they have quite advantage.

As another user said: "The Senate is split 50-50, but the 50 Democrats represent 41 million more people than the 50 Republicans"

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by fjabre on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:34PM (#25866188)
We are a representative democracy for a reason. It was designed that way.

You can't change the rules of the game because you're losing.

The United States was designed as a representative democracy on purpose by the forefathers. That is fact.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by triceratops on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:46PM (#25867699)
> We are a representative democracy

And the argument is that this democracy isn't sufficiently "representative", since it doesn't represent everyone equally. Indeed that's an explicit non-goal.

> You can't change the rules of the game because you're losing.

But you can agree that the rules of the game are rigged against one side. You don't get to deny that just because you're winning.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by sjwright on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:57PM (#25866414)
Just because something was designed for a specific purpose a few hundred years ago doesn't mean it serves that same purpose today. Situations change. The Constitution was designed to be amended.
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday January 21, 2021 @07:03PM (#25866467)
"representative democracy" does not require the structure of the US senate, nor state districting policies, nor the electoral college.

There are many other representative democracies that do not have any of these "features".

Also, I thought a reply ago, you stated that the left was winning, not losing.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by colinmhayes on Friday January 22, 2021 @12:12AM (#25868548)
It was designed to be unfair. The small states threw a fit at the constitutional convention so now we're stuck with this bs. Why does representative democracy mean some people are more represented than others? Why can't everyone be equally represented in a representative democracy?
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by triceratops on Friday January 22, 2021 @12:20AM (#25868591)
Right? "We are a representative democracy" is some Orwellian doublespeak. It leaves out "But some people are more represented than others."
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by colinmhayes on Friday January 22, 2021 @01:12AM (#25868900)
"All votes are representative, but some votes are more representative than others."
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by fjabre on Saturday January 23, 2021 @10:31AM (#25882885)
You bring up Orwell. Both sides can get to extremism pretty easily. Both conservatives and liberals easily become dictators. Power corrupts everyone.

This has nothing to do with Orwell. Im not sure why you bring him up.

The forefathers designed the system this way. I agree with the way it was designed. It prevents big states like California and New York from calling all the shots.

I agree with the forefathers. You do not. Simple.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by triceratops on Sunday January 24, 2021 @08:45PM (#25898137)
> Im not sure why you bring him up.

Because saying "it's a representative democracy" is doublespeak. If you have one person representing tens of millions and another person representing a small city (~150k people), and they have the same vote, it's not meaningfully "representative". Saying "it's a representative democracy" doesn't tell you anything about the fairness of the system.

> I agree with the way it was designed.

Because it favors you. It would be a bad system even if it was the other way around (i.e. it favored the other side).

> It prevents big states like California and New York from calling all the shots.

I'm still to hear a good argument for why it's better for small states to call shots instead.

> I agree with the forefathers. You do not. Simple.

I'm fine with that. They were as fallible as anyone else and could not have foreseen that their system might have flaws. There's no need to deify them and think that everything they did was right.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by betterunix2 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:03PM (#25865031)
The electoral college absolutely does matter and absolutely does favor right wing politicians (for now). Every state gets a minimum of three electoral votes regardless of their population, so as a result, a single vote in a sparsely populated state like Wyoming has up to four times the influence that a single vote in a densely populated state like NJ has. The current political make-up of the country is such that right-wing politicians find far greater support in rural areas and thus are favored by the electoral college. So far only right-wing politicians have managed to win the electoral college without winning a majority in the popular vote.

Similar logic applies to the Senate: regardless of population every state gets two senators. Right-wing senators have received fewer actual votes (by individual voters) than left-wing senators for years, yet in that time right-wing control of the senate has been more common than left-wing control. Right now the split in the Senate is 50-50 (Vice President, a Democrat, breaks the tie) but the total number of votes cast for Democratic senators was much higher than the number cast for Republicans.

You literally have to deny reality when you deny that the electoral college and the senate represent a structural advantage for Republicans right now.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by fjabre on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:55PM (#25865730)
Reality is that the Dems own the entire congress and the presidency right now.

Reality is we are representative democracy. The forefathers deliberately designed it that way.

Reality must line up with your arguments. It does not.

If what you say is true, Trump would most likely be president right now.

Dems own entire cities with the largest population centers. Dems have better organized grassroots. Dems have California and New York, the main stream media.

What advantages you speak of are moot compared to those ones.

We are a representative democracy and we always have been.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by maxerickson on Thursday January 21, 2021 @07:21PM (#25866630)
Yes, we should change the system. It was a compromise that is now well outdated.
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by fjabre on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:51PM (#25867736)
Appreciate your honesty even if I disagree. I like the way it is setup. It stops the big states from pushing around the little ones too much.
Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by ben509 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:29PM (#25867974)
The entire premise of a republic is that power is checked and balanced. The aim is not to represent the "will of the people", because the will of a majority is frequently to oppress a minority.

The EC was more than a compromise, it was an integral part of a system that prevents too much power being handed to any one institution or demographic. And forcing national candidates to appeal to a multitude of states rather than a handful of cities has a moderating effect.

If anything, what's outdated about the EC is we need more checks on the political influence that is centralized in cities because the founders didn't anticipate urbanization.

Re:Judge refuses to reinstate Parler after Amazon shut it down by colinmhayes on Friday January 22, 2021 @12:14AM (#25868562)
And the current system allows the minority to oppress the majority. I don't see how that is better. What we actually need is ranked choice or proportional representation so that we can have more than 2 parties.