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Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by personlurking on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:22AM (#25822593)
As it gains more followers, more investors and a higher value per coin, the media and regulatory assaults will continue to increase.
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by cft on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:30AM (#25822655)
And it's likely that the government assaults will take an environmental angle.
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by Nursie on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:35AM (#25822714)
Good, it uses more power than Switzerland, it's ridiculous.
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:42AM (#25822802)
It uses more power than Switzerland to do TWO TRANSACTIONS PER SECOND at the very most. A PC from 2004 could run this network better.

It is beyond ridiculous, it's a crime against humanity.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by celsoazevedo on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:54AM (#25822951)
Don't layer 2 solutions like Lightning Network greatly increase the number of transactions?
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by Nursie on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:00AM (#25823022)
In theory.

In practice lightning channels require on-chain transactions to set up and tear down, and also have (had?) issues with nodes needing to be online for various reasons (including potentially losing the money to the counterparty), and IIRC there were potentially unsolvable routing issues too. They also require significant quantities of bitcoin to be locked into channels to make them work. It seems like a real hack.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:02AM (#25823044)
Nope. For lightning to scale, it would have to solve its routing problem, which it has absolutely zero prospect of ever doing. It is an open problem in science, and considered extremely difficult.
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:04AM (#25823073)
Your (absolutely valid) issue is with Proof-of-Work, not with Bitcoin or crypto in general.

Layer-2 solutions are coming up and Ethereum is showing excellent progress towards Proof-of-Stake. Combining these two, it will not only eliminate wasteful energy spending but will also get do hundreds of thousands of transactions.

When we get to those, will you stop crying for its demise or is there any other chip on your shoulder?

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:06AM (#25823089)
Layer two solutions are hot garbage, and will never do anything useful. Lightning is impossible and will never scale. People have been trying and failing to implement proof of stake for years and years.
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:32AM (#25823399)
Can we agree to not take things related to Bitcoin and generalize it as the whole space for crypto? Lightning is not the only layer-2 solution there is (just as an example: Ethereum already has zk rollup-based solutions) and even if it were there is a growing number of people that are using it successfully.

> People have been trying and failing to implement proof of stake for years and years.

People have been trying and failing to implement heavier-than-air flight machines for years and years. So?

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:08PM (#25823862)
People have been trying and failing to transmute lead into gold for centuries.

Some things just don't work. And proof of stake is not exactly technologically difficult. Yet it's still not here.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:26PM (#25824103)
There is now 2 million ether (~3 billion USD) staked for ETH2.

If are so certain of it not being viable, what's stopping you from shorting it? You and every Negative Nancy out there could pool together to bet against it, no?

Even if you are not interested in the money, you can donate to environmentally-friendly causes - what do you think?

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:31PM (#25824170)
> If are so certain of it not being viable, what's stopping you from shorting it?

The fact that the markets are massively manipulated, irrational and untrustworthy. The entirety of the cryptocurrency markets is basically rigged gambling. I am not an idiot.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:46PM (#25824341)
Let me know if I am misrepresenting you:

- You want everyone else to stop working towards something they believe is achievable but you are not willing/unable to show any concrete evidence of its un-feasibility.

- You are also not willing to put any skin in the game for what you believe.

With that in mind, please tell why anyone should take you seriously?

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Monday January 18, 2021 @12:57PM (#25824490)
What kind of idiot would put "skin in the game" in a rigged game?
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Monday January 18, 2021 @01:30PM (#25824871)
What kind of idiot goes around screaming on the town square that everyone needs to repent for their sins because the apocalypse is coming, never gets to bring any credible evidence and still think is going to convince anyone?

If the game is rigged and you truly believe so, yes, it's one more reason for you to put skin in the game.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Monday January 18, 2021 @04:31PM (#25826885)
> If the game is rigged and you truly believe so, yes, it's one more reason for you to put skin in the game.

Uh, no? If you think a casino is rigged, that is a reason NOT to play, no?

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Monday January 18, 2021 @06:18PM (#25827940)
What I am saying is that there plenty of gamblers that lost their money and went to complain about being cheated. "Thinking" the game is rigged is not enough. If you want to be taken seriously, either you manage to uncover the con or you use the con against themselves. Otherwise you are just a lame sad loser.

Anyway, I am sure you won't do any of that. It's much easier to just sit on your chair and fool yourself into thinking that you are the only one that knows all the answers and everyone that is trying to work on improving the state of crypto is a fool. What is off-putting about all of your comments is that you dismiss the work or research of anyone as a waste of time (and energy and natural resources) but you fail to provide any kind of compelling evidence that can reject whatever hypothesis people are trying to validate.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @03:45AM (#25831268)
So you have zero concerns about Tether?
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @05:01AM (#25831765)
Oh, yay! Look who is still moving the goalposts... First we started about the environment, then it is the "impossibility" of layer-2 and PoS, now we want to throw Tether into the mix.

Yes, I have plenty of concerns about Tether. I tell anyone I can they should stay away from it. I also tell everyone that when Tether crashes down it is going to make Mt. Gox look like a day at the spa.

I also repeatedly tell them to avoid exchanges that can only do on-ramps in USDT and to use exchanges where they do have a proper KYC system in place.

I also repeatedly tell people that they shouldn't put money into crypto that they can not afford to lose.

I also repeatedly tell them that the idea is not to be rich by doing nothing. That buying crypto is not investing and that those trying to time the market or finding "moonshots" are stupid fools.

I also repeatedly tell people to do DCA, buy a little every month and get the money back during the boom cycles and only keep the profits to grow their stash, so that they don't feel bad about "losing" anything when the next crash inevitably comes.

I also repeatedly tell people that learning and getting involved with crypto is a matter of hedging against the vicious and corrupt financial elites that on each generation take away more and more of our agency and independence. That the price doesn't matter and that our freedom is what at stake. That there are tons of issues with the technology and there will be tons of bad actors trying to exploit both the technical and the social problems.

I tell them to expect things to crash any time, but I also tell them that even if past performance is not guarantee of future returns, so far every crash drove the price down 4x and then the boom cycle brought it back up 20x.

Depending on what country they live, I might tell them that even with all the crashes, BTC has NEVER gone down in price against the Brazilian Real since 2013.

You know what I don't tell people? That I have all the answers and they are fools for trying something on their own volition. Only douchebags do that.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @08:47AM (#25833357)
So you think Tether is untrustworthy.

But do you think Tether is having any effect on the overall market?

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @09:51AM (#25833906)
No doubt.

What does it have to do with you wanting to get rid of all of crypto, calling useful only for extortionists and scammers and with your certainty that PoS is never going to become a viable alternative?

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @10:16AM (#25834178)
It has to do with why I don't "just short crypto then". The market is manipulated.

By shorting, I would assume that the market is rational, and will go down. There is no reason to assume this, since the market is irrational, and manipulated.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Tuesday January 19, 2021 @10:54AM (#25834664)
"The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" is a maxim that is repeated way before blockchain or Tether was a thing. So I understand if you don't want to take your chances to bet against crypto.

Yet, shorting Bitcoin is not the only way to put "skin in the game", and you should know that.

- There are a dozen different projects popping up every week that are genuinely focused on solving the issues that armchair specialists love to criticize, you could work on them.

- There are many crypto projects that have a more hybrid approach to have consensus and are more inclined to work with and not against the status quo (e.g, Stellar) - instead of just spewing the tired "crypto is for suckers" speech, how about finding a project that you think is deemed more worthy of respect.

- There are lots of people that need some way to store and transfer value without relying on local governments or financial systems. If you think people shouldn't use BTC for that, what alternative are you going to bring/propose?

So, to sum up: next time a discussion about BTC or crypto comes around, can you please drop the histrionics and bring something better to the table?

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by disruptalot on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:51AM (#25822908)
Bitcoin is not simply transactions.

- Bitcoin is an algorithmic and unchangeable monetary base.

- It's an un-censorable, neutral global payment network

- It's an immutable ledger.

What are you familiar with to compare to such a thing?

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:02AM (#25823055)
Actually, bitcoin is simply transactions.
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by cesarb on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:09AM (#25823129)
To elaborate: what people think of as a "Bitcoin" (or a fraction of a Bitcoin) is under the covers the unspent output of a transaction (this includes mined coins, which are a transaction without an input). Without transactions, there's no Bitcoin.
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by user-the-name on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:43AM (#25822815)
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge... Generally, it's been losing them. It's only the degenerate gamblers still clinging on, and the scammers. So many scammers.
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by api on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:34AM (#25822698)
Investors...

In what? It’s a terrible currency. It’s a terrible store of value too since it requires the power of a small developed nation just to keep it online. Gold needs some security but otherwise gold atoms just sit there and gold. Property and widely diversified bags of assets are also better stores or value.

It’s not even really decentralized. Any industrial process is subject to economies of scale. If it sticks around eventually there will be one or two mining conglomerates. Pools already have quite a lot of power and could collude to attack the chain if they could profit by it or if nation states forced them.

It’s a transparent bubble and gambling vehicle with little other utility.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by runsWphotons on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:45AM (#25822838)
If you just hold bitcoins they just sit there too mostly. It takes energy to mine them just like it takes energy to mine gold. It seems it takes a bit more energy to mine a bitcoin than an ounce of gold, but bitcoins have other properties that gold doesn't. (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07283-3)
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by api on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:02AM (#25823040)
If you turn off the chain bitcoins still exist, but they are not fungible. What value do they have when they can't be traded?
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:50AM (#25822898)
Your (absolutely valid) issue is with Proof-of-Work, not with Bitcoin or crypto in general.

If/When Ethereum 2.0 does come through with its PoS consensus systems, will you still call it a bubble?

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by api on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:01AM (#25823026)
If PoS actually works maybe not, but I'll believe it when I see it. Most alternatives to PoW I have seen replace it with some form of phantom centralization or are not secure.

My understanding is that PoS makes the hyperdeflationary problem worse by locking up a lot of currency, and also makes the wealth centralization problem worse. Eventually you'll end up with a few large stakers instead of a few large miners.

The thing that would really change my mind is if I saw cryptocurrencies being used a lot for useful commerce, not just gambling and money laundering. The closest I know is Monero which is used for black market commerce, but at least it's commerce. Trouble is that the bubbles actually chase away useful commerce by making the currency incredibly unstable vs. other currencies and stores of value.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:08AM (#25823110)
Glad to hear that you are at least open for the possibility.

Regarding PoS: Ethereum is not gold. Ethereum is oil. Yes, it has value, but only when it is used to get you something else.

Regarding "commerce" with crypto, I mostly agree, but the reality is that for payments to become a common use case we still need to build A LOT of critical pieces - chiefly: have a reliable/cheap system to get stable currencies [0][1], lower the transaction costs[2], make it easy for people to request[3] and accept payments online [4] and build some permissionless system to settle payment disputes [5] as well as to get insurance and the ability to do chargebacks. These things will take time to get right, but this should not mean that they should be facing eternal and constant unfounded criticism or accusations of fraud/malice. There are lots of people working on crypto who don't care about the price fluctuations and are not doing it just for the quick buck - they should be supported, not discouraged.

[0] https://synthetix.io

[1] https://makerdao.com

[2] https://raiden.network

[3] https://request.network

[4] https://hub20.io

[5] https://kleros.io

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by albntomat0 on Monday January 18, 2021 @11:10AM (#25823137)
I'm not the poster you're replying to, but the underlying PoW issues are, IMO, disconnected from the wild price behavior and investors using it to speculate.

Coupled with difficulty in scaling transactions, and the sketchiness of Tether (and the affect of a potential collapse of Tether on Bitcoin), Bitcoin definitely is a potential bubble.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by rglullis on Monday January 18, 2021 @02:30PM (#25825551)
I agree that Tether is a terrible thing to the whole ecosystem. Their market manipulation makes it that no one can actually be sure of BTC's price and consequentially most crypto assets. They effectively turned themselves into all of crypto's central bank, which is exactly the kind of thing that crypto/blockchain technology to eliminate.

But we are talking here about the technical issues regarding crypto.

PoW is just too costly and damaging to the environment, the fact that most of the miners are located in areas where they can get subsidized, cheap and dirty energy makes it all the more concerning. PoS should help here.

The ability of the network to scale is still a problem. ETH2 + layer 2 solutions (combined) should also solve a lot of these issues.

What I'd like to know is what are the technical issues that is still going to be used as an excuse for people to be against it.

Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by viraptor on Monday January 18, 2021 @03:23PM (#25826167)
Until Bitcoin network has a plan and date to migrate away from PoW, the issue is with Bitcoin as much as PoW itself.
Re:Blackouts have hit Iran. The government is blaming Bitcoi... by xwdv on Monday January 18, 2021 @10:40AM (#25822775)
The goal is just to not get caught holding the bag.