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Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by tathougies on Sunday January 10, 2021 @02:54PM (#25718913)
they are increasingly beyond the reach of normal citizens. If your views do not align 100% with either party, you are increasingly marginalized. See the treatment of Donald Trump (a republican outsider, and not a traditional conservative by any means, but not a democrat in principle either) by the Republican party. For the past four years, republicans have refused to pass bills due to not matching ideological purity tests from Trump. The best example of this is DACA (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/01/09/trum...), for which Trump has repeatedly asked for a legislative solution that gives these children legal status. Because that is not the exact party line of the GOP, they didn't like his solution. And then along with that, he wanted the wall of course, which doesn't fall into line exactly with the democrats, so now, despite DACA and secure borders being an issue many care about, no political party would take them up due to ideological purity.

On the democrat side, see the treatment of Bernie Sanders and Tulsi Gabbard (Both non-traditional democrats in different ways) by their party.

Honestly, after seeing both how the GOP and Democrats treated Trump, Sanders, and Gabbard, I find myself supportive of all three of them despite them having a very different views. I simply like that they're not either party.

It increasingly seems that both parties are becoming incredibly dogmatic, and anyone who doesn't fall in line is simply barred from public discourse or elected office. It is increasingly true that in order to even get to elected office you need the support of a party.

In my state of Oregon, the democrats and republicans actually mandated that you be part of a party before being elected to office. You can no longer run as an independent. It's so bad, some people made an 'independent party' just to be able to have non-democrat or republican candidates on the ballot, but this suffers from the same issues as parties, in that those individuals still need to be 'nominated' by a select group of people annointed by the party organizers, which means even the independent party has a bias, even if they try to minimize it.

We need major electoral reform, nationwide, but it doesn't benefit any party to do that. What I would like to see are protesters from both BLM, Antifa, or whatever and the capitol protesters (not the rioters of any group please...) band together for a change and demand a better means of governance from their legislators. The people need to band together on common principles, instead of being divided by stupid policy points.

Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by bproven on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:51PM (#25719634)
i would have replaced Trump with Ron Paul (remember him?) as a Republican/Libertarian with strong support via grassroots and youth (that wanted real change) that the party did not want and did everything they could to destroy or co-opt.

When we saw the same thing being done to Sanders by the Democratic party (almost an exact mirror of what happended to Paul) it was a strong hint as to what is really going on. Neither party is"better" in this regard...

Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by tathougies on Monday January 11, 2021 @04:27PM (#25737393)
Yes, you're right. The casting out of Ron Paul made me really mad. Thanks for reminding me.

No, no party is better really. The GOP is the same. It's run by the same kinds of old farts. My main source of good feelings towards the GOP is that I tend to agree with their unelected members. But more and more I'm seeing those members also hate the GOP establishment. I wouldn't be surprised to see the party fracture heavily soon. I hope the democrat party also has the same split. There are good, decent democrats that share common principles and who I'm sure cannot stand their party leadership. I mean, the DNC is so bad, that I actually feel sorry for my left-leaning friends who also seem unable to get any representation.

Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by leesalminen on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:11PM (#25719127)
This should be the top comment IMHO.
Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by root_axis on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:45PM (#25719555)
> Honestly, after seeing both how the GOP and Democrats treated Trump, Sanders, and Gabbard, I find myself supportive of all three of them despite them having a very different views. I simply like that they're not either party.

This seems absurd. If your political reasoning puts you in a situation where Trump and Sanders are both options for you then your system is broken - they are antithetical to each other in style, philosophy, character and most importantly policy. Based on your logic, if both parties rejected Stalin then you'd be in favor of him.

Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by alisonatwork on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:58PM (#25719713)
I don't think this is too difficult to understand. It's anti-establishment versus establishment, populist versus elite, that sort of axis.
Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by root_axis on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:25PM (#25720071)
I still don't get it. It just seems silly to favor a candidate based on who rejects them. If policies on opposite sides of the political spectrum are interchangeable then why care at all who gets elected?

At least voting for a 3rd party one can be said to be contributing to a cause closest to one's ideal, but being favorable to anyone who the mainstream doesn't approve of just seems like flawed logic.

Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by datenarsch on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:54PM (#25720409)
The establishment/mainstream is the real enemy of the people. It totally makes sense to support anyone who you think could realistically challenge and destroy the status quo.
Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by root_axis on Sunday January 10, 2021 @05:04PM (#25720527)
What if the person that destroys the status quo is worse? Is your argument that nothing could be worse than the status quo?
Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by alisonatwork on Sunday January 10, 2021 @05:10PM (#25720604)
A useful example might be to look at the fallout of the various protests during Arab Spring, and how it led to both more liberal and less liberal outcomes.

Anti-establishmentarianism can bring together people of different political persuasions who all want to dismantle parts of the current system. What comes after that is a new battle, and that one may end up fought along more traditionally ideological lines.

Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by testrun on Sunday January 10, 2021 @07:51PM (#25722618)
This is not about the person. It is about alternative voices to be heard in policy making and policy execution.
Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by Dma54rhs on Sunday January 10, 2021 @06:13PM (#25721376)
Fighting against "globalism" could have been something people like Bernie used before Trump too. Ironically anarchist and antifa groups have always tried to burn down cities where globalists meet, G7 etc. They might have different explanations but in the end it's fight for the capital.

Corbyn for instance, very much left wing, opposed EU because of all the globalist bankers and buerocrats in Brussels controlling the society, cheap labor bringing down wages.

If you're a bit older or have better knowledge, then trumps policies are far more similar to someone like Sanders if they really wanted to team up. (I'm not talking about his speech and the way of saying things)

Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by tathougies on Monday January 11, 2021 @04:30PM (#25737450)
We actually see Trump/Sanders directly overlap in Tulsi Gabbard, a democrat who supported Sanders, but who often disagrees with Trump (and indeed, was the sole democrat to not vote for impeachment). Many Trumpers like her too. I like that she is honest personally. She has both criticized the antifa/blm riots and the riots on the sixth. Brought up concerns of both police brutality (concerns I share, BTW), and election integrity (which I also am concerned with).

I actually have supported with many actions of Antifa / BLM (probably wouldn't guess that from my post history), including the protests at Pelosi's and McConnell's houses, and the disruption of the globalist meetings you mention. I don't agree with them in their destruction of property, especially that of small mom-and-pop businesses, or even big business if it affects small businesses (by raising insurance rates for example). And obviously, I disagree with anything actually threatening lives.

Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by a1369209993 on Sunday January 10, 2021 @07:22PM (#25722210)
> Based on your logic, if both parties rejected Stalin then you'd be in favor of him.

If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -- Winston Churchill

Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by tathougies on Monday January 11, 2021 @04:28PM (#25737420)
> Based on your logic, if both parties rejected Stalin then you'd be in favor of him.

Yes, I'd rather have a social democrat that rejects Stalin than a fiscal conservative that embraced him.

Unlike the various 'what-ifs' of policy issues, anyone can examine the actual record of Stalin and his policies. And, in my opinion, anyone who finds him a source of inspiration, regardless of their stated policy preferences, has a severe lack of judgement.

Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by selimthegrim on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:14PM (#25719150)
Gabbard is very lucky she is not in trouble for not registering as an agent of a foreign government after all her connections with VHP
Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by jessaustin on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:38PM (#25719447)
Vishva Hindu Parishad? Has any American even heard of that? Why bother inventing something so arcane?
Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by selimthegrim on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:26PM (#25720075)
There was quite a bit of press about her links with Modi and the Modi-supporting diaspora
Re:Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) by jessaustin on Sunday January 10, 2021 @06:06PM (#25721282)
It's not clear if this whole goofy thread arises from anti-Hindu prejudice or opposition to democracy?