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Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by notafraudster on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:53AM (#25685877)
I mean, your thoughts are a rational way of thinking about this. Rationally, you might think that if you are concerned about a vote tally machine, you could do a hand recount, and if it matched, then clearly the proposed fraud couldn't be taking place at the vote tally level. That's a very normal way of thinking through things. And I don't actually blame anyone who has concerns about election security or vote tallying, it's a natural and important thing to worry about.

But let me suggest this: The modal person who has "concerns" about the election right now is a Republican who was told by the Republican president and Republican senators and congressmen that evil Democrats stole the election and that's why they won. It is mostly about retroactive justification of a feeling like Republicans -- or Trump, in specific -- should have won but didn't. This comes after a year long campaign of saying the news was fake, the polling was fake, Joe Biden is low energy, Hunter Biden did something horrible, 90% of OANN respondents say Trump won the debate, etc etc etc.

And here I'm talking about reasonable, regular Republicans out there in the world. The modal person you hear yelling ONLINE about this stuff literally believes that the Democratic Party is an international child sex and murder ring run by Hillary Clinton and Barry Soetero (a Muslim Atheist who was born in Kenya) who gain superpowers by chemically extracting hormones from the dead kids they murder in the basement of a pizza place in DC.

The legal partner of the lawyer being sued here believes that the vice president should be executed for refusing to overturn the election, that the chief justice of the Supreme Court is a pedophile and a child murderer, and that Jeffrey Epstein is still alive. The lady who got shot to death the other day is an avid follower and retweeter of this person: she died for the cause she loved, foolishly believing internet grifters who claim everything is a communist plot. The Viking guy who stormed the house floor believes he is a spiritual interpreter for a movement that says JFK Jr. is secretly alive and a middle-aged dude in a bowler hat who teamed up with Trump to execute all the Democrats who killed his father. I wish I was joking, all of this accurately reflects what we're talking about here. These are the people whose position we're trying to understand.

They don't think Dominion is an election company that changed some votes or whatever, they think Dominion is a communist front run by Cuba and China and the dead former president of Venezuela and Canada (which is just China, they both start with "C", suspicious???) and Hunter Biden. Dominion's entire reason for existing is electing communists like Joe Biden. They believe that not a single Democrat won anywhere in the country, that majority-black areas of the south and majority-Latino areas of LA that vote 85% Democratic are actually Trump strongholds if not for the fraud. Don't pay any mind for why they didn't sue in the other 43 states or why they didn't try to overturn any house elections.

This is like understanding why John Hinckley shot Reagan. Literally, he did it because he believed Jodie Foster was sending him psychic messages that she wanted to be with him if only he'd make a grand gesture. But I don't think we can do much if our objective is to try to convince him that he was wrong about that, because he wasn't engaging in a rational analysis of the evidence to begin with.

Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by disgrunt on Friday January 08, 2021 @11:23AM (#25686240)
Your frothing at the mouth hyperbole aside... I'm not a Republican, I'm not even an American, and I see a lot of issues with how this election was conducted. Maybe you don't, or don't want to. Maybe the end justifies the means. But when the shoe is on the other foot, remember this garbage you just posted to HN before you start crying foul.

If I was an American I'd want to be confident in the election process. I don't know how one remains confident with videos of election observers being removed from counting areas to rousing applause, videos of counting areas being blocked off from observers using cardboard and other opaque barriers, video of ballots being counted after election observers had gone home for the night, hundreds of witnesses reporting irregularities, etc.

The country I'm from isn't perfect when it comes to elections, either. But given its immense power in the world, I'm greatly concerned with what I've observed in the United States.

Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by notafraudster on Friday January 08, 2021 @11:35AM (#25686405)
I am confident the shoe will not be on the other foot because I am not a conspiracy theorist and I do not believe in conspiracy theories. And also I have worked elections before so I understand the basics of how they work. I am also not an American.

You are mostly referring to actual nonsense which was discussed and debunked in great detail in the over 100 post-election lawsuits that these doofuses lost. States (red and blue) and state officials responded to all of the criticisms in clear and convincing detail. Most of these boil down to the Republican party encouraging unqualified people to serve as poll watchers without training, and then whenever they didn't understand routine election processes they jumped to the conclusion there was a vast conspiracy against them. You obviously were able to internalize the criticisms via osmosis or via your choice of media diet, but somehow were able to avoid either being able to refute the criticisms from first principles or actually seeking evidence for them.

One special note: Most of the observers removed were violating obvious and reasonable rules -- many of them were COVID deniers who felt if they couldn't breathe maskless on poll workers their first amendment rights were being suppressed. At the time, many were yelling "STOP THE COUNT", because the message of the night from the president on down was that it was illegal to count votes after polls closed.

I used ZERO hyperbole in my original comment. I didn't even add any new information. All the stuff I said is documented in great detail in the lawsuit itself. It's not hyperbole to say the people being sued believe any of this. If there is something you believe is not literally true, let me know and I'll provide a source, but again the vast majority of this is directly documented in the suit that is the subject of this thread.

Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by disgrunt on Friday January 08, 2021 @01:40PM (#25688135)
The shoe was on the other foot in 2016. Many on the left claimed election fraud, including the Green Party filing lawsuits demanding recounts. Their disputes were with the same states in dispute in 2020 (Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin). [0]

The courts dismissed their lawsuits for lack of standing, not on the merits of their case.

In 2019, Elizabeth Warren, Amy Klobishar and Ron Wyden wrote a letter to Congress warning about vulnerabilities with three voting machine vendors, one of which being Dominion. They point out the same things that Sidney Pollock did in her complaint. [1]

[0]: https://www.freep.com/story/news/nation/2016/12/06/election-... [1]: https://www.warren.senate.gov/oversight/letters/warren-klobu...

Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by VikingCoder on Friday January 08, 2021 @11:30AM (#25686335)
I'd like to discuss each objection, one at a time. Sound good?

1) Dominion voting machines changed counts.

No, they did not. There was a hand recount in Georgia, and the counts matched within a reasonable degree.

Are we done with that objection yet???

If not, please walk me through how we have not definitively resolved this issue.

And that's my point - people KEEP RAISING THIS ISSUE. That means they are not listening to reason. It is unreasonable to mention Dominion Voting Machines in regard to Georgia. The issue has been settled. Continuing to raise it is proof of bad faith, rejecting clear evidence, without any new evidence that would make us re-evaluate the issue.

If you care to move on to one next issue, may I recommend "video of ballots being counted after election observers had gone home for the night", which is very related to this first issue, and has similarly been resolved, and it's also unreasonable to keep raising it, for reasons I'd be glad to discuss.

Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by disgrunt on Friday January 08, 2021 @11:49AM (#25686604)
Ok, let's start with this forensic analysis of an actual Dominion voting machine that was used in the 2020 presidential election in Michigan. [0]

[0]: https://beta.documentcloud.org/documents/20423772-antrim-cou...

Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by VikingCoder on Friday January 08, 2021 @12:41PM (#25687338)
How about the courts do it, instead?
Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by disgrunt on Friday January 08, 2021 @01:44PM (#25688230)
And if not the courts, maybe Congress needs an Election Commission to investigate election irregularity claims?
Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by VikingCoder on Friday January 08, 2021 @03:18PM (#25689859)
How about more funding for election security?

Oh, that's right, Mitch McConnell wouldn't bring those bills before the Senate. [1]

[1] https://www.courthousenews.com/mcconnell-under-fire-for-bloc...

Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by disgrunt on Friday January 08, 2021 @06:04PM (#25691666)
And yet the mainstream media has cast him as the voice of reason in all of this mess. Hmm.
Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by VikingCoder on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:10PM (#25692995)
It's important to reward good behavior.

If you'd like to see more divisiveness, just watch to see what McConnell says in the next 112 days.

Re:Dominion Voting Systems sues pro-Trump lawyer, seeking mo... by archagon on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:23PM (#25696208)
Frothing? Surely, you jest. This is the most level-headed and accurate description of the situation I've seen on this site.