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Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by lrvick on Thursday January 07, 2021 @04:21AM (#25668998)
Moxie highly discourages using the APK because it means turning on untrusted sources which is highly unsafe and bypasses signature verification.

It is one BGP attack or compromised CDN admin way from compromising the masses.

This is one of the few points I agree with moxie on.

The only safe way to install software on an Android device requires you bootstrap trust via a system supplied package manager that enforces signature verification.

Lineage grabs unsigned binary blobs from a separate account with little accountability ( https://GitHub.com/themuppets ) to limit the blast radius of illegally distributing them and does not ship a package manager at all.

They expect degoogled users to do disable system signature verification to use an alternative app store like F-droid. Lineage is great if you want to turn an old device into a game system or something, but it should not be used on a device you need to be able to trust.

The only Google-free option to have a signed system-verified app supply chain on Android is use a ROM that bundles F-droid as a system trusted app manager like CalyxOS, RattlesnakeOS, or my projects, aosp-build, and #!os.

While F-Droid is far from perfect it is the only alternative path and Moxie refuses to allow apps to be distributed there because he openly admits he wants the usage metrics that come from Google/Apple distribution.

In effect, you either use Apple/Google ecosystems to run verified binaries, or compile yourself every week or two.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by tremon on Thursday January 07, 2021 @04:27AM (#25669047)
Moxie highly discourages using the APK because it means turning on untrusted sources which is highly unsafe and bypasses signature verification

That's nice, but why should Moxie decide whether the Google Play Store is a trusted source for me?

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by lrvick on Thursday January 07, 2021 @04:35AM (#25669108)
Right. They offer one option with signature verification and low privacy (Play store), and one option with higher privacy but low security (YOLO apk).

If neither of these work for you, you are not wanted on the Signal network.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by est31 on Thursday January 07, 2021 @04:59AM (#25669258)
> bypasses signature verification.

APKs do not bypass signature verification. Android still requires all apks to be signed, and only installs updates to apks that were signed by the same original key.

As for BGP attacks, the apk is distributed using TLS, so it needs more than that. That being said, CDN hacks are definitely an issue. But so is someone hacking their play store account or Google play itself.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by lrvick on Thursday January 07, 2021 @05:05AM (#25669299)
Semantics, but worth clarifying.

You have to turn on untrusted sources to sideload an APK. It will verify a signature. The problem is the OS has no anchor to know if that signature is by the key of the party you expect, or that of a malicious adversary. Once you pin the wrong key it is like getting a bad HTTPs cert on first connection. All bets are off moving forward.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by est31 on Thursday January 07, 2021 @05:08AM (#25669317)
The OS has no anchor when you obtain it from the play store either. Google play can absolutely send you a hacked app with a different signing key if they want to. Signatures play no role in the first installation, they only play a role in subsequent installations.

If you have downloaded the apk using http, you can still verify the signature before installing through other means, e.g. by comparing it to your friend's installed APK, using multiple ways to download the apk, etc. Can you do this with Google play?

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by lrvick on Thursday January 07, 2021 @05:29AM (#25669451)
As much as I loathe Google I do have a fairly high expectation that the HSM rooted key pinning infra of Google Play itself is less vulnerable to MITM than the standalone signing key embedded in an APK hosted on a CDN somewhere.

You also can directly download APKs from Google Play using Aurora Store and compare them to the standalone APK in theory, though both points of verification are against the same entity so it only rules out MITM on a CDN etc.

Problem is, who has time to do this for every single update? How many would even do it for the initial install? Most technical sysadmins don't even verify ssh host fingerprints unless automated CA infra does it for them.

Even if someone does do this religiously, in practice I suspect they will put off valuable security patches until they can manually verify every new binary corresponds with the published source code to rule out supply chain attacks etc.

If two totally independent entities compiled and published signed binaries and their hashes matched (when signatures are stripped) then there is some automated consensus there are currently no obvious supply chain attacks in play to protect users at large who don't have the time or experience to compile and verify against the published apk by hand or manually compare fingerprints. F-droid could keep the Signal Foundation honest if they let them but instead they say "trust us, or compile your own binaries" as if no middle ground exists.

Meanwhile I can hand my wife a phone with F-Droid and Matrix and know she can update reasonably safely without any manual key verification steps by me or her. Even when the signing key of matrix.org on Google Play gets compromised the blast radius does not extend to F-droid.

The more reputable independent package managers building, signing, and distributing protocol compatible binaries the better. Makes it impractical for even a sophisticated adversary to gain control. Also lets users to have the freedom to choose an easy automated install)update path for apps that respects their privacy by not requiring proprietary Google services.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by est31 on Thursday January 07, 2021 @05:49AM (#25669571)
> who has time to do this for every single update?

Again, you only have to do this for the first install. After that, the local OS takes over and rejects any apk signed with a different key. It's a TOFU system.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by lrvick on Thursday January 07, 2021 @06:06AM (#25669683)
Fair. My SSH host key example stands.

Systems that expect humans to be key pinning anchors are always a bad plan.

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by MYEUHD on Thursday January 07, 2021 @05:56AM (#25669621)
>and Moxie refuses to allow apps to be distributed there because he openly admits he wants the usage metrics that come from Google/Apple distribution.

So he admits he cares about usage metrics more than privacy. which makes trusting signal a bit hard

Re:WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebo... by chalst on Thursday January 07, 2021 @05:13AM (#25669349)
Directly installing APKs by hand is something that is only for people who know what they are doing. However, providing the APK for download is something that is helpful for 3rd party package managers, which can verify the hash.