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Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by h2odragon on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @12:01PM (#25647603)
Some of the "sovereign citizen" folks have a whole mythology based on "incorporated people", it has some appeal in that it'd be nice if there was just one law and it applied to all.

Why can't we have our own personal corporations, which can stiff our creditors, cheat customers, etc etc with impunity? Surely all the social benefits of allowing this behavior from groups would only multiply if these liberties extended to individuals as well.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by gruez on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @12:20PM (#25647875)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil#Fa...

>Factors that a court may consider when determining whether or not to pierce the corporate veil include the following

>[...]

>Was the corporation being used as a "façade" for dominant shareholder(s) personal dealings; alter ego theory;

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by moftz on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:01PM (#25648573)
Right, if they think your "corporation" is just a shell to shield you from justice, they will just prosecute you instead of going with the charade of trying to punish your shell company. The feds rarely have trouble prosecuting someone when they want to, they've got somewhere between 95-99% conviction rate.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by singlow on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:02PM (#25648604)
I am not sure if I disagree with your main point. But the conviction rate is only proof that they don't prosecute cases when they do not have the evidence to win.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by omgwtfbyobbq on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:06PM (#25648653)
That's only for really obvious cases. Part of the problem is that a corporation can effectively distribute liability across different people/groups, so no single individual can have a really good idea, or is even aware of what's happening collectively, to facilitate bad behavior, so to speak.

Doing this allows them to effectively engage in the same bad behavior an individual can, but without the risk associated with a single individual doing all of those things themselves. It also may allow them to scale better too. :/

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by 8note on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @03:29PM (#25650600)
Isn't that conviction rate based on not pursuing cases that aren't a sure shot?
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by kelnos on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @03:44PM (#25650758)
Well, sure, conviction rates only cover cases when charges were filed, so we'll never know when they decided not to bring charges in the first place because the strength their case didn't meet some internal threshold.

But I think the Feds are pretty good at building cases. Since it's a crime to lie to a federal investigator, all they have to do is find some fact they can prove about you that you'd be likely to lie about, and get you to lie. (Technically the lie has to be material to the investigation, but in practice any vaguely related lie seems to do.) Apparently it's often not that hard to do; they're trained to exploit the psychology of the situation to their advantage.

And once you've lied, they have something on you, and they can use that as leverage to get more.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by anigbrowl on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:47PM (#25649237)
I have a certain sympathy for the SovCit people, because while 99 times out of 100 they're trying to evade their legal responsibilities, they are making a valid point that such evasion is in many ways institutionalized in our society as long as you can throw some money at the problem ahead of time.
Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by kelnos on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @03:46PM (#25650785)
I have sympathy for the concept, but not the people. All the videos I've seen of them arguing their cases are so mind-numbingly stupid that it pisses me off just that they're wasting taxpayer money taking up law enforcement and court time with their bullshit "tactics".

Reality doesn't fly out the window just because they want something to be true.

Re:Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out... by anigbrowl on Thursday January 07, 2021 @02:07PM (#25675681)
Some of them are stupid and mean, but some are just stupid and think they've found a secret code or way to 'hack the legal system'. I agree they're time-wasters and the people who sell them on the scam are legal fraudsters, but I also think it highlights a problem of excess complexity in our legal system to the point of seeming arbitrary and impenetrable. The sad thing about most sovereign citizens is that they're not usually trying to accumulate big fortunes or run elaborate criminal schemes, they're trying to get off the hook for petty criminal or administrative violations that have disproportionately impacted their lives.

I kind of agree with Plato that a society with too many laws ends up becoming tyrannical because it's impossible for the average person to keep up with them all. Also, in our modern society every wrong thing you do follows you around forever, and our bureaucracies tend to be Kafkaesque (also due to stupidity rather than malice). While I do not agree with the trope that 'most people commit three felonies a day', simplicity and clarity would be a good foundation for better civics education.