Just as a nit, there absolutely is. Food provides value in that you can eat it to survive. Housing provides value in that it provides shelter from the elements. A goat provides milk and you can eat it. Barter systems typically involve the trade of two such goods. The problem is that such goods typically spoil with time, which is a primary advantage of fiat currency -- it is not subject to physical constraints.
Historically, people also used things like salt, which had intrinsic value (for preserving and flavoring food) but didn't spoil. But the use becomes so abstract that its pointless to haul salt around. Eventually you transition to precious metals, which also have some intrinsic value (for engineering various goods) but much less concrete. Then you transition to effective "gold IOUs" (gold-backend currency).
The idea of having a currency completed untethered to anything of value is relatively new. One of the most interesting aspects of bitcoin is proponents fervently advocate for one element of the gold standard (a fixed supply), but not the other (something physical of utility).
That's what it means to say that goods lack intrinsic value.
The exception is of course money, whatever good it is that is winning the Keynesian beauty contest of "good which I think everyone else will want as much of as they can get".
> One of the most interesting aspects of bitcoin is proponents fervently advocate for one element of the gold standard (a fixed supply), but not the other (something physical of utility).
if gold became useless for exchange purpose and only it's use-value was relevant, market price would go down to pretty much nothing, the scammiest cryptocurrency exit-scams would be brought to shame by that drop. so physical utility of gold has absolutely no relevance to gold-standard. even jewelery use-value was mostly driven by exchange-value, so that would become irrelevant as well and the market would be flooded by worthless golden trinkets and rings.
According to Wikipedia: "The world consumption of new gold produced is about 50% in jewelry, 40% in investments, and 10% in industry.".
Now, there are ETFs, futures, options, etc, that inflate the speculative portion, but the valuation due to physical properties is still likely within an order of magnitude of its total market value.
> Food provides value in that you can eat it to survive.
People value food (in many cases) because they can eat it. It doesn't mean that the value is intrinsic to the food. In fact, in many cases the value of the food is zero (or even negative! -- it still needs to be disposed-of) because no one wants it.
> Housing provides value in that it provides shelter from the elements.
People value housing for that reason, but housing doesn't have that value on its own. It has value because people want to use it for something. There are many abandoned houses that show this value is not inherent, but rather conditional and context-dependent (like all other value).
> A goat provides milk and you can eat it.
Yes, some people value goats for that reason. If you put one in my house, it will immediately have negative value, because not only do I not want it, the time it will take me to find a good way to get rid of it will dwarf the amount I can sell it for.
> Historically, people also used things like salt, which had intrinsic value (for preserving and flavoring food)
Again, people value it for that reason, but the value isn't in the thing (intrinsic). The value is imputed to the salt by people.
> Eventually you transition to precious metals, which also have some intrinsic value (for engineering various goods)
Again, no, but this one is perhaps the easiest to understand -- the value is imputed by people because of what they can do with it. In situations where they can't do anything with it, it has no value, revealing that the value was never intrinsic in the first place.
> The idea of having a currency completed untethered to anything of value is relatively new.
I would argue that this is not the case, and comes from a narrow way of looking at value. Say I'm a nerd (this may or may not be a true story). In early 2012, I find out about a thing called Bitcoin. I don't understand it very well, but it sounds cool, and I mine some just to say I have it, and then tell people I have it. I value it. I can't do anything with it physically, but that's true of a lot of things. I own a number of pieces of art that I value, even though I can't really do anything with them other than know they're there, sitting in my closet or storage unit. It doesn't make the value somehow not-real, because all value (in this sense of the word) is imputed to things by people; it's not in the things themselves.
You just have to look at natural ecosystems to see the reality of this; almost anywhere there's an energy gradient creating a niche there's some lifeform taking advantage of the situation.
And what is actually being valued? Not negentropy itself; merely particular economic goods that are examples of the process of negentropy.
WRT guarantee... yes, let's say I accept that you can send BTC to somebody regardless what laws the US passes. The question is, can you receive something in exchange? Because if you can't then it means that the technology is not offering you any guarantee. So that guarantee can't be the "intrinsic value". (you don't claim that it is - you just claim intrinsic value does not exist, which is a completely new discussion that I don't want to get into right now)
Anyways yea, not harping on you too much for semantics but the rabid crypto fanboys(not calling you one) really fuck up their terminology and understanding of basic economics.
Hey, wait a second, isnt McAfee supposed to eat his dick since bitcoin didnt hit the million mark?
that is quite the goalpost shift. bitcoin allows you to send and receive bitcoin securely and without asking permission. it is not bitcoin's purpose to ensure whatever the contract you're trying to realize entails. there are escrow services and what not for that.
the guarantee bitcoin gives you is that once transaction was finalized:
- you are the sole owner of assigned bitcoin
- only you can change that record in the ledger
- nobody can stop you from doing that
- nobody can dilute your share of the asset beyond the normal issuance schedule[+] BTC is not money, but I'm going to let that slide for this part of the argument.
yes it is. no technology will suddenly make censorhip go away. but technology can allow one to circumvent censorship. bitcoin doesn't solve censorship, corruption, fascism, genocide and whatever else you may want to throw in to justify your skepticism, but it doesn't have to. it solves a very specific problem: non-debaseable digital money and permission-less transacting of it. that comes with a set of compromises and great deal of responsibility for your actions, but it's a useful and valuable tool, first of it's kind and certainly the biggest revolution in finance since gold standard.
Exactly! It also is interesting how people were berating USDT for not having their coins backed in USD. Does it matter? As long as people are amicably agreeing to trade it at 1 USD, it's working as designed.
there is no such thing. not in bitcoin, not in usd, not in gold. all value is extrinsic and assigned by market.
> tons of other things do! E.g. why not invest in amber, it's probably one of the rarest things in the universe
and tons of other things are invested into: precious metals, commodities, etc. bitcoin is the first digital commodity, which can't be inlated by some centralized authority.
> is there ANY inherent guarantee
yes, bitcoin transaction is finite and irreversible as soon as signature is published via any possible information channel and sufficient number of blocks are found on top of the one that includes the transaction. you can morse-code it into ionosphere to be picked up by the receiver or you can flashlight it across north korean border, no internet required.
US regulation may prevent you from interacting within US jurisdiction, but that's a different issue and precludes bitcoin being money about as much as US ban of certain drugs precludes them from getting people high.