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Re:Human Brain Project: $1.61 billion to achieve human brain... by hasenj on Thursday May 19, 2011 @12:22AM (#2562863)
I don't believe/think that consciousness/awareness is a property that can emerge from running a brain or a brain model.

But, even if it were: a computer simulating my brain will not be me; I will not experience what it experiences.

Suppose someone came from the future and claimed to be "me"; that is, 20 years from now I will go to the past; or something like that. Let's call the future me F and the present me P. I'm P, when P sees the color red, it's me who's seeing it. But, when F sees the color red, P doesn't experience the same thing. (it will experience it 20 years later, when it becomes F).

So if a clone of me experiences something; I won't experience it.

So if you upload my memories to a brain and then torture that brain, you wouldn't be torturing me; you'd be torturing a machine that happens to have my memories. In the same sense that if you clone me then torture my clone, he will experience the pain; but I won't.

If I do experience the pain of my clones, then we (me and my clones) must be telepathically communicating, or something like that, which, while philosophically not impossible, it's not compatible with physicalism, which you have to accept if you think consciousness can arise from running a brain model. I say telepathy is not compatible with physicalism because telepathy implies a super-natural communication between minds (where minds are implies to be super-natural entities).

Re:Human Brain Project: $1.61 billion to achieve human brain... by rsaarelm on Thursday May 19, 2011 @03:43AM (#2563203)
The idea that people who aren't so sure about this as you are have isn't that telepathy is going on. It's that if this sort of mind-state cloning is going on, you might no longer have grounds to expect to wake up as the physically original instance of yourself with 100 % certainty after the cloning procedure.

People are made of atoms, and so far we haven't found any magical quality beyond physically stored memories that gives us reason to think a person at one point in time is the same as a person in another point in time, including ourselves as the person. With the mind-state cloning going on, at some point in time there is going to be one present person with a past person's memories being unsurprised at not having ended up as an upload, and another present person with the same past person's memories being quite surprised at ending up as an upload despite remembering having been a physical person who expects to continue living as a physical person. I'm not quite sure what kind of definition of self would let the past person maintain a justified 100 % expectation that they will end up as the non-uploaded version of themselves in the future.

Re:Human Brain Project: $1.61 billion to achieve human brain... by radu_floricica on Thursday May 19, 2011 @07:40AM (#2563596)
It's about empathy. I can't be tortured that way, and neither can you. But a copy or a construct could be - and many of us find the thought just as distasteful as if it were a flesh-and-blood person.

If the simulation could talk to me, I'd rather it be treated decently.

This being said, I think there are ways to go around this problem. There are many ways in which my brain could be disabled so I wouldn't mind it being "tortured" or experimented upon. Consciousness is an emergent property - take away a few of its building blocks and it disappears.

Re:Human Brain Project: $1.61 billion to achieve human brain... by FlowerPower on Thursday May 19, 2011 @03:08AM (#2563151)
Do you think it is OK for F or a brain mdoel to experience pain? As long as it is not you who is feeling the pain, it is moral acceptable? Is that what you are saying?
Re:Human Brain Project: $1.61 billion to achieve human brain... by hasenj on Thursday May 19, 2011 @03:22AM (#2563168)
Well no, of course not! (assuming a brain model does experience pain)

I'm just saying if this theoretical "virtual hell" does really happen, it will be a computer hell, not a human hell.

Although I don't actually think a computer simulating a brain model will have consciousness. However complex that simulation is, it's nothing more than electrons flowing through a circuit, and this flow has no intrinsic meaning; I have no reason to believe consciousness can arise from such a thing.

Re:Human Brain Project: $1.61 billion to achieve human brain... by Mahh on Thursday May 19, 2011 @03:21AM (#2563167)
He's only saying that a copy of a brain would create a separate entity, and that separate entities won't share experiences. Like how identical twins have different experiences. There were no claims about morality of using brain models for testing.