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Re:Why Jira Sucks by wpietri on Thursday December 31, 2020 @03:30PM (#25596790)
You express a number of notions here that are part of the fantasy of managerialism [1]. An especially big one is that if we render all important decisions unto a managerial class, they will make optimal choices.

If that were true, startups would never succeed, because established companies would use their greater resources and market power to gobble up market niches before startups could get momentum. In practice, everybody here knows that's not true.

I think the true way to optimal resource usage is not through ever-increasing process and managerial layering. Instead, it's through tight feedback loops where small cross-functional teams iterate closely with the people they're serving. Which is exactly how most good startups work. If you were really right about pursuing a financial optimum, the first thing (very resource-constrained) startups would do is get a copy of JIRA and hire some middle managers to carefully parcel out the work against precisely designed specs and timelines. That they don't should tell you something.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managerialism, and also see https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A76WZ96/

Re:Why Jira Sucks by namdnay on Thursday December 31, 2020 @05:19PM (#25597832)
I think it’s important to realise that the vast majority (I’m sure it’s more than 90%) of software development being done is technical people from enterprise A building something to help nontechnical people from enterprise B with process C. That’s not something that startups have ever competed with, for good reason.

I love startups and I love working on that space, but you must stay aware that it’s a tiny galaxy within a much larger universe of software that is built and sold like any other engineering project.

And in this “enterprise” (for want of a better word) space, management is important. Not because managers are omniscient or omnipotent, but because at the end of the day, when a customer is paying a large amount of money for something intangible, they need people to talk to, they need figures to see, they need metrics. And in business, the customer is king. Again, except for the startup galaxy where customers are two a penny

Re:Why Jira Sucks by wpietri on Thursday December 31, 2020 @07:07PM (#25598876)
Startups compete in the enterprise space all the time, [1], so I don't think your characterization is correct.

I agree that client relations is important, but that's something that happens in many businesses. Like the comment I replied to, you assert that a managerial apparatus is necessary for that. I don't think that's the case. It's true that managerialist-dominated companies often prefer to work with other companies of a similar culture. But that doesn't have anything to do with what makes for efficient software engineering.

[1] e.g.: https://www.computerworld.com/article/3412380/the-hottest-en...

Re:Why Jira Sucks by namdnay on Friday January 01, 2021 @08:15AM (#25603018)
No again you’re mixing two markets. Just because a SaaS startup sells solutions to big companies, doesn’t make that the same thing as custom IT projects

Enteprise but Startupy: MS Teams

Not startupy: BMW need a solution to track how many defective gearboxes are detected every month, sorted by supplier, model and assembly site, data fed in from the various factory control networks, verified weekly by each quality responsible on an intranet and sent monthly to top mgmt.

What I’m saying is that the second type of project represents more than 90% of the software being coded out there today.

A startup by its very definition (or at least PG’s definition) does not operate in this space , because it’s not exponentially scalable

Re:Why Jira Sucks by wpietri on Friday January 01, 2021 @03:37PM (#25606782)
I would be interested to see your data for that 90%.

Even if correct, I also don't think your point invalidates mine. I have done contract work for small companies that build "second type" code for large companies. One doesn't need Jira for that. As I said, one needs good client relations, but that can certainly be accomplished without a lot of top-down mangerialist claptrap. Indeed, it's my experience that things are better that way. They don't need metrics. They need their problems solved. Those two sometimes go together, but they're quite often opposed.

Re:Why Jira Sucks by tootie on Thursday December 31, 2020 @11:40PM (#25600910)
That's not what I mean at all. JIRA doesn't imply any sort of top down approach. In fact, I'd argue it's the best tool for those tight feedback loops. Each ticket is a versioned history of the decisions, feedback and work history of a single task. Startups can get away without tools because they can communicate very tightly. That doesn't scale much past an org of even 20 people. Not everyone can talk directly to the CEO or the budget makers, nor are they all sufficiently cognizant of the business constraints to make the right calls on prioritization. There isn't a tier of professional managers as much there's a tier of experts in their discipleship who have visibility across multiple teams and into the business decision making. People who need to allocate budgets and resources without attending every scrum or sprint planning.
Re:Why Jira Sucks by wpietri on Friday January 01, 2021 @04:10AM (#25601895)
You specifically said Jira wasn't for developers, but rather for the managers and stakeholders. That sounds pretty top-down to me.

I also don't understand how you believe Jira can be best for tight feedback loops, but also agree that the tight communication and focused teams make Jira unnecessary. That seems contradictory.

Re:Why Jira Sucks by tootie on Friday January 01, 2021 @11:41AM (#25604451)
I only meant developers don't necessarily need it to organize their team. Or at least they could get away with something simpler. But organizing the team is only half the battle. Or really less. Knowing what to work on and how to prioritize is more important. Especially if you're managing multiple products and projects. Developers may not need it to write code but they absolutely need it to manage expectations as much as managers need it to set expectations and track against goals and budgets.
Re:Why Jira Sucks by wpietri on Friday January 01, 2021 @07:04PM (#25608717)
Developers absolutely don't need Jira to manage expectations. And we don't need it (or managers) to set expectations and track goals. There are more things, Horatio.

I get that Jira may be a way that works for you, for a local definition of "works". But there are a lot of good ways to make software.