That's fair. But I know a number of men (to go with the example) who think it's unmasculine to dance (or to dance in certain styles and settings). However, as a single guy taking up ballroom and tango dancing was a great idea for meeting women (along with, at that time in my life, getting in better shape and starting to dress better). The notion that "real men don't dance" (like real men don't eat quiche) is harmful to many individuals because it's become internalized as a quality of themselves due to identity and not due to actual preference.

That's the problem with labeling and holding onto an identity too strongly. It can contradict the actual desires of the individual and can often contradict reality.

But I agree, don't force it on people. I've never tried to force anyone into something they don't want to do. When they, on a rare occasion, participate in something they ostensibly hate and express real joy in the experience, it's obvious that it's not the activity that's the problem but something else.

Yeah, I definitely agree with this. My pet peeve is just when people assume you're not doing something because of the label, not because you actually just don't enjoy the thing.

Yeees, but the problem Jtsummers mentions is that often the label gets “internalized as a quality of themselves”, so especially men sometimes thing that it’s their own preference, when they just never had the right space to discover the joy of dance. I think that dance is actually a very universal human thing and that there’s a strange alienation from dance and our bodies going on in western culture, especially for men. This cultural alienation is so deeply embedded in our identity that it’s often a blind spot, where we don’t even notice what we miss.

I myself thought that I didn’t enjoy dancing, would never be able to enjoy it and that I had zero interest in learning dancing until I eventually discovered that I do actually want to learn to dance, which started a journey which ended up with me becoming a professional dancer.

But I agree both that not everyone has to dance and that pressuring people to dance is not the right strategy for showing them the joy of dance.

> I think that dance is actually a very universal human thing and that there’s a strange alienation from dance and our bodies going on in western culture, especially for men.

This is kind of what I mean. Humans are very diverse, and I don't think dance is actually a universal thing. (You could probably argue it overall as a species, but not for every individual.)

Because of this, too often the attitude is "well you WOULD like dancing if you just loosened up and stopped worrying about what people think!". I'm sure that's true for some people, but definitely not all.

I realize, based on your last paragraph, that you're not the type of person to try to force someone into dancing. It's just similar to the line of reasoning I've encountered when other people can't seem to understand that I don't like it. It's like they can't compute the idea that it's just not something I enjoy. So many people seem to assume that the only possible reason is "a label you've internalized as a quality of yourself", and it comes off as condescending.

Mean while I love to dance, but absolutely lack to necessary coordination and motor skills to engage in more structured dancing like ballroom, tango, salsa, ballet, etc.

This isn’t through lack of trying, but rather through the act of trying and suffering excessively before ultimately giving up and just moving to the music in my own way.

> The notion that "real men don't dance" (like real men don't eat quiche) is harmful to many individuals because it's become internalized as a quality of themselves due to identity and not due to actual preference.

Yeah toxic masculinity sucks. Both as a thing and as a term.

The masculine label is not one that’s easy to achieve so fulfilling everything the label demands is actually a huge achievement. Things have specifically been excluded from the label for a reason, whether they resonate with you or not.

The advice would be to not let a label tell you that you don't like it. If you don't like dancing because men don't dance then that's silly, no matter if it's your deepest held conviction or not.

Yep, agreed. I only point it out because there are certain types of activities where others will assume you only dislike it because of the label, and not because you actually don't like it. Dancing seems to be one of those.