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Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by andi999 on Monday December 21, 2020 @01:58PM (#25498132)
What is the deal with mirrorless? (no mirror, but why does this improve optics?)
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by cactus2093 on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @02:03AM (#25503741)
I think a lot of the replies you’ve gotten focus on the wrong thing.

Mirrorless in practice really just means the camera works more like your phone camera. You view the image on a screen instead of through an optical viewfinder. That brings some nice benefits, none of them are necessarily a game changer on their own but together it makes for a major step forward in the experience. Now the viewfinder shows you the picture more like it will actually look, the processor can see the image as you’re composing it before you take the shot and provide hints and show you that information overlayed on the image, the processor is involved in auto focusing and can do things like use ai models to focus on eyes, plus the physical benefits like there’s a big complex moving piece the camera no longer needs.

Camera makers then used this change to make a bigger platform shift at the same time. Just like a major version bump in software, if you have breaking changes you’ve been waiting to make you might want to make them all at once. They widened the mount diameter of lenses, which combined with the shorter distance to sensor because of the lack of a mirror gives more flexibility in letting in more light to the sensor. And they built a new set of lenses around it, whereas a lot of the lenses in their old lineups were sometimes decades old and not designed for the crazy high megapixel sensors we have now and in the near future. Most of these new lenses released in the past few years have been very high quality, so to answer your question that’s really where the improved image quality comes from, this new generation of lenses.

Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by DeathRay2K on Monday December 21, 2020 @02:20PM (#25498352)
Every element the light interacts before hitting the sensor degrades the quality in some small way. But losing the mirror doesn't really improve optics significantly. It's more about reducing cost and complexity in manufacturing, moving things like autofocus into software. The benefits to the consumer are quieter shooting and a lighter body.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by Arelius on Monday December 21, 2020 @02:36PM (#25498530)
Yes, losing the mirror doesn’t really improve optics, however removing the mirror and related mechanism does allow one to bring the lens closer to the focal plane, which in turn affects the size of the rest of the lens elements. And makes everything smaller and lighter as you allude to.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by ip26 on Monday December 21, 2020 @05:34PM (#25500482)
which in turn affects the size of the rest of the lens elements.

Sort of. The diameter of the front element is predetermined, a function of the sensor size, focal length, and aperture. Mirrorless cannot escape this.

But, the shorter distance from sensor to lens does simplify the design of a good wide angle. Sadly, wide angles were never the big heavy lenses in the first place.

The whole smaller & lighter thing is not a lie but pretty oversold. Some of the RF glass is actually bigger and heavier than the equivalent EF glass.

Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by chiefgeek on Monday December 21, 2020 @08:38PM (#25501912)
Heh. You've never carried a body with a Nikon 14-24 f/2.8 or a Canon 11-23 f/2.8. They are beasts! But yes, the teles are generally the heavy ones.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by joliu on Monday December 21, 2020 @05:46PM (#25500598)
Doesn't a DSLR work by moving the mirror out of the way of the sensor when taking an image?
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by Baeocystin on Monday December 21, 2020 @06:07PM (#25500805)
You are correct. That motion of the mirror itself is responsible for most of the noise, and some wobble of the camera as well.

It's a trade-off, though. Seeing the actual image through the lens, and not a digital representation, which is what you get with a mirrorless system, has its benefits.

Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by nomel on Monday December 21, 2020 @11:44PM (#25502941)
> which is what you get with a mirrorless system, has its benefits

I never found those benefits. What would you say they are?

Early on, the problem was mirrorless were slow in autofocus, and they had relatively terrible EV quality. Now they have better autofocus than mirrorless, and more importantly, with the very high resolution EV displays they have now [1], what you see is exactly what you end up getting. You don't have to guess about anything anymore, like what's going to blow out, which is fantastic. What you see in an optical viewfinder with your eye is not what your sensor sees is going to portray. I don't see any benefit to optical viewfinders at this point.

[1] 5.7MP OLED EV!: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1494679-REG/sony_ilce...

Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by Baeocystin on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @03:52AM (#25504317)
The true colors of what you're shooting, the true dynamic range, and the ability to see to edges of the focal plane with greater clarity. What you see in a mirrorless camera has already gone through a great deal of processing to approximate what you'd see naturally with an SLR system.

Which is fine for what it is! If you aren't shooting in a studio, the reduced mass of equivalent lenses with mirrorless systems is a big quality of life upgrade all on its own, for example. But the color representation just isn't there, and it isn't going to be until we get better color in our display systems. It's being worked on, of course, but there's a long way to go.

Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by nomel on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:41PM (#25512782)
> The true colors of what you're shooting

I don't understand this. The EV displays are calibrated. It's what you're going to get on your high end monitor when you get home. Eyes do not work like camera sensors, so I don't see how this is a plus. White balance being a great example.

> the true dynamic range,

How can your eye tell you this though? Unless your'e doing HDR/exposure stacking, dynamic range from the perspective of the sensor is all you're going to get. With the EV, you get clipping/black indicators, and even a histogram. I'm never wondering if I'm going to blow out the sky or crush some details in shadows anymore. I can see if I am, without having to snap then preview.

> the ability to see to edges of the focal plane with greater clarity.

I don't understand this at all. The new EVs give you 100% crop (with some slightly reduced zoom so it fits), with complete clarity edge to edge.

I would suggest giving a new high end EV another try.

Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by Baeocystin on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:15PM (#25512999)
Perhaps I'm not doing a good job of explaining. Let me try again.

1. The color space of the EV's display (and even the wide-gamut monitors available for desktop use) do no fully encompass the colors we can see. https://i2.wp.com/digital-photography-school.com/wp-content/... for a diagrammatic example of common colorspaces vs. what our eyes are capable of perceiving. In particular, the greens and purples are abbreviated, and I prefer composing with the true colors in my eyepiece.

2. Knowing the condition of the light before it hits the sensor lets me compose more accurately. If I'm looking at the true light, I can tell at a glance if there is detail worth working to preserve in the highlights or shadows (by using a split neutral density filter, for example, to bring the sky brightness down some) or not.

3. I'm not talking about edge-to-edge clarity. I'm referring to the depth of the focal plane, and the rate of falloff. If you're shooting with a very wide aperture before infinity-focus distance, the plane is going to be very narrow, and seeing the rate of the falloff is easier when it isn't pixelated.

Hope that helps.

Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by jjeaff on Monday December 21, 2020 @06:14PM (#25500873)
Yes. With mirrorless, you have the advantage of the image continuously hitting the sensor. So you see in your viewfinder more or less what the sensor is seeing. On a dslr, you are seeing a facsimile of the end result.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by rodgerd on Monday December 21, 2020 @05:01PM (#25500145)
As well as the comments already made, there's another thing to consider: in a SLR or DSLR, the path used to determine whether or not you're in focus is different from the path light follows to the medium: the autofocus system has a screen that takes light from a mirror, and then adjusts the lens based off that measurement. In manual focus, you're basic it off the path the light takes to the focusing screen, via a mirror.

In either case, when the photo is taken, the mirror whips out of the road (which generates mirror slap, another problem), and the light travels to the film or sensor. Since this path is a different distance to the one used for focusing, it requires only a small calibration error between the body and lens to end up with out-of-focus images. It is very normal to have to tweak the focus (higher end bodies will let you do this), or to have to have a body or lens physically corrected. No matter how exquisite your optics - in fact paradoxically, this effect is worst with high-end optics - the way the light path works here can be a real pain for getting good focus.

Because mirrorless systems focus and capture from the same medium, this literally can't happen with your mirrorless camera.

Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by jodrellblank on Monday December 21, 2020 @05:06PM (#25500197)
Does it help with using cameras for video footage, or would it be no problem to hold the mirror out of the way for a long time? (I imagine it being held in some kind of tension that wouldn't like long term force on it).
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by earthboundkid on Monday December 21, 2020 @07:40PM (#25501577)
My DSLR had a hard limit of 30 minutes video time, but I suspect this is because of the software issues, not mirror tension per se.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by detaro on Monday December 21, 2020 @07:42PM (#25501591)
That probably was a tax/duty thing, the EU treats (treated? not sure) cameras that can record over 30 mins or so as video cameras which have higher fees.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by ScottBurson on Monday December 21, 2020 @08:09PM (#25501751)
Yeah, that's still going on, dammit -- my new D780 has the 30 min. limit.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by tomatocracy on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @05:33AM (#25504871)
If it's a Canon DSLR and is supported by the Magic Lantern firmware modification, it will allow you to circumvent this limit that way. It's possible that you may then need to use an external recorder via HDMI to avoid overheating depending on the model etc.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by hadlock on Monday December 21, 2020 @07:15PM (#25501400)
With mirrorless, you can put the back of the lens closer to the sensor (don't need to flip a mirror out of the way at high speed) which reduces the glass needed for the same effective focal length. Less length = less glass. Less glass = less mass, which means less force required for an electric autofocus motor to push around all that glass.

Modern zoom lenses have anywhere from 11 to 30 elements, in 3-11 groups, that move at different speeds relative to each other. Doing that with a tiny electric motor, precisely, for a decade is a tough task, especially when the mass of the glass starts to exceed 1kg.

With a mirrorless camera, you can reduce the mass of the lens by ~10% for a full frame camera. With an APS-C sensor, mirrorless, you can reduce the mass by 33%. With a "micro four-thirds" sensor, the mass of the lens is less than 50% of a full frame. Rough numbers. As with everything, there are pros and cons to going with smaller sensors than full frame.

Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by jmarcher on Monday December 21, 2020 @02:13PM (#25498281)
Most mirrorless mounts are significantly wider (diameter wise) and closer to the sensors so they are able to develop new lenses that can take advantage of that.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by Max_aaa on Monday December 21, 2020 @02:56PM (#25498800)
Also less moving parts, so this results in a more reliable product.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by jen729w on Monday December 21, 2020 @03:05PM (#25498912)
And smaller. I think the days of a big ‘hero camera’ are behind us. People just don’t want to lug around the weight if they don’t have to, and it’s no longer such a status symbol.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by ghaff on Monday December 21, 2020 @04:18PM (#25499678)
We went through this period where people bought an APS-C DSLR with a relatively cheap kit zoom lens which never came off the camera shooting on (A)utomatic. They weren't "wrong" but a lot of those folks would have been just as happy with a higher end P&S like Canon's G series. And, today, they're just fine with a smartphone.
Re:Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan by rangibaby on Monday December 21, 2020 @07:53PM (#25501648)
The mirror being between the sensor and lens means that there is a dead zone where there can be no lens, which severely restricts lens designs.

For example, for many years fast normal lenses on SLRs were 58mm “Biotar” not 50mm because a a new kind of focusing (retro focus) had to be adapted to work with a mirror in the way.